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Combat Rifle Rd

Discussion in 'General Firearms & Ammo' started by Ole Cowboy, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. diesel1959

    diesel1959 por vida Lifetime Member

    Nov 7, 2013
    Houston & BFE
    Well, a rifleman can't be expected to overmatch the opponent's GPMG. I am more referring to having our DM have sufficient overmatch to the opponent's DM, as well as seeing to it that the average rifleman has a weapon of sufficient utility for the expected mission.

    zackmars likes this.
  2. zackmars

    zackmars Well-Known

    Nov 4, 2015
    Well yeah, but we're reasonable, at least reasonable enough to know this

    Last time i saw the military presentations on ballistic overmatch, it was all "zOMG REAR ECHELON PEOPLE CANT GO TOE TO TOE WITH CONCEALED GPMG'S!!1! WE NEED AR10'S!"

    Overmatch could be a valid study if you are looking to compare say, m110 sass and csass to psl's and dragunovs, but they are comparing the m4 to the psl and dragunovs
  3. GasGuzzler

    GasGuzzler Member

    May 19, 2018
    Me too...because the title of the topic says Rifle Rd.
  4. Ole Cowboy

    Ole Cowboy TGT Addict

    May 23, 2013
    17 Oaks Ranch
    Back in town as after a long arduous business trip...successful? YES, Tired, You betcha.

    I will address some of your thoughts.

    First of all the 5.56 is a poor choice for a combat rd. But why?

    Drugs: Little is said about the German and Japs drug use in WWII, but drugs were heavily used by the Axis against us. This really became apparent in Vietnam when were faced with an enemy of small stature around 5' 5" about 130 lbs, now stoked them on drugs and pumped up on adrenalin and they could take a hit and keep on coming. If you did not get a head or heart shot you better pull the trigger again.

    Gel testing may tell the tale of the tape in penetration but not performance on the killing fields. Couple that with a .22 bullet and knockdown power just is not there.

    But the Army held on to the belief it worked only with GREAT reluctance have they chosen to move in another direction. Who knows for sure what the final outcome will be. Along with a switch to a new rd for us Infantry guys has come a whole 'nother set of tactics. It appears the Army is wanting the warfighter to play at least out to 800m...REALLY. That is raising the recruiting bar REAL HIGH, I will save that another discussion.

    I am a major believer in COTS (Commercial Off the Shelf). We have a lot of proven rds, 2 of my faves are the .243 and the 6.5 CM. Just not convinced that a new rd has to be created to fill the need.

    People are not deer. To that I say People are NOT GEL blocks and they are a helluva like closer to deer that a gel block is. Average weight of a summer Texas whitetail deer is 150 lbs...and deer are always pumped up on adrenalin! What effectively kills deer will a man IMO.

    The .243/6.5 CM are some real standouts in the field and do not require being invented.

    you might want to spend some time here:!/
  5. FireInTheWire

    FireInTheWire Ego kills talent TGT Supporter

    Jan 22, 2018
    Big Country
    I agree... I was confused for a bit.

    Needs to be a street sign.
  6. zackmars

    zackmars Well-Known

    Nov 4, 2015
    There is no such thing as knockdown power

    It's just something that gun store clerks make up to try to push things on uninformed customers.

    As it turns out, rounds that perform well in ballistics gel tend to do well on the street, and it allows you to see the true performance of a round without an outside factor ruining the experiment.

    Once again, people are not deer. Deer do not shoot back. Deer do not wear armor, deer aren't trying to fix and maneuver on you. Deer don't go around taking dozens of "kill shots" from .308 amd continue to function

    The ".22 bullet" as you so simply put it is pushing near 3000 fps while still maintaining good barrel life, low recoil, and capacity. Yes .243 and 6.5 exist, but have you held even an AR10 carbine? Shits heavy, even without an optic, magazine, peq, etc. Magazine footprint is much larger, a carrier that can hold 4 AR15 mags on a single stack shingle can only hold 2 ar10 mags in the same space

    I get where you're coming from, but unfortunately its a mix of gun store hyperbole, and outdated nonsense that has killed numerous potentially great service rifles, and given us rifles that are only useful on a known distance range.
    TheMailMan likes this.
  7. easy rider

    easy rider Slacker Extraordinaire TGT Supporter

    Jun 10, 2015
    Odessa, Tx
    digger, pronstar and Ole Cowboy like this.
  8. Ole Cowboy

    Ole Cowboy TGT Addict

    May 23, 2013
    17 Oaks Ranch
    Knockdown power or sometimes referred to as Killing Power, here is the formula.

    E x SD x A = KPS

    Energy (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x cross-sectional Area (in square inches) = Killing Power or Knockdown power call it whatever you chose.
    If you are not happy with that then apply the formula for Kinetic Energy: kinetic energy (KE) is equal to half of an object's mass (1/2*m) multiplied by the velocity squared. For example, if a an object with a mass of 10 kg (m = 10 kg) is moving at a velocity of 5 meters per second (v = 5 m/s), the kinetic energy is equal to 125 Joules, or (1/2 * 10 kg) * 5 m/s2

    Its just physics no more, no less, but what it does is provide an index(s) on which you can make some probable outcomes.

    No, Deer don't shot back or wear armor, nor did I say they did. However the size of an average Whitetail Texas summer deer is about 150 lbs, their body size is about that of a full-grown man and like men they have organs, muscle and bone so the similarity if about equal and faer more accurate in testing than a gel block that contains no bones and has a uniform density vs muscle and organs.

    Weight*: While a consideration, the Army has not figured out how to have a major impact on load-bearing combat weight. Of the 3 studies I am familiar with, Vietnam, Ft Lewis* and ME wars the COMBAT load has varied less than +/- 5 lbs from 147 lbs. The TO&E, on the other hand, varies a lot. Winter Vs Summer could swing from a low of 82 lbs to a high of 106 lbs, but that is NOT COMBAT loading that is just TO&E but does include your basic weapon and No Ammo.

    * Weight between a AR10 vs AR15 dressed out same-same for Infantry or civilian is about 2 lbs in fact about 1.8 +/- oz's.

    As for the frame, if you use the Win Short Mag .243 you get the same length as the 5.56, but it gains in the girth by being a fatter round. That will cost 5 rds or in a 30 rd mag 25 vs 30.

    Yes, the Army is on a tear to get the weight down and seeing as that have not been very successful since WWII I don't see any magic on the horizon. Of course, this is being driven by the integration of women into the Infantry.

    *Ft Lewis Study: one of the things looked at was the optimal carry weight. Sadly that did not give the Army and answer it wanted to hear so it was not disseminated. However, their office was the same building and down the hall...20% of body weight was considered the optimal load-bearing carry. To make it worse an Infantry soldier around 5'10" - 6' 2" and weighing about 175-200 lbs will lose approx 35-50 lbs in the combat role.

    ANYHOW...point is there are a lot of superior rds to the 5.56 and I am more than a bit concerned since the Army has stated it is going to design its own rd...telling us that of all the COTS rds out there nothing is suitable...I find that hard to believe!
  9. Ole Cowboy

    Ole Cowboy TGT Addict

    May 23, 2013
    17 Oaks Ranch
    Good read I fully concur.

    We would go out a first like and do an assessment, look for any that may still be alive and get body counts. I found it amazing at how many of the little guys, no body armor of any kind had more holes in them than my grandmothers pin cushion and how close some had got to our perimeter. Truly dead men walking...
  10. TheMailMan

    TheMailMan TGT Addict

    Dec 3, 2015
    North of Kaufman
    The .243 WSM is a barrel burner. Even on a basic infantry weapon you're talking about swapping barrels quite often. In a combat situation you would need to issue barrels. That means the weapon needs to have a user swappable barrel. That's going to increase complexity, weight and cost.

    Taking a look into the not so distant past, the second battle of Fallujah, some of those Marines would have needed to swap barrels at least once a day, if not twice.

    Base diameter of the .243 WSM is almost half again that of the .223, I think your estimates of magazine capacity loss are a bit off.

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