Claiming "combat accuracy" is an excuse.

[breakingcontact]

Key points from video:

- Combat accuracy as "currently taught" is an excuse for poor shooting and poor instruction.

- 5" accuracy at 5 yards isnt really accuracy at all (yellow portion of my target)

- Skills degrade during stress for everyone including combat shooters. Target shooters start with an advantage

- 4" at 7 yards is more better than 8" at 5 yards

*Added later. Should have posted up front but you know...work and sleep and stuff.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Accuracy is important but he didn't address suppressive fire at all?!?!?

 

[breakingcontact]

Accuracy is important but he didn't address suppressive fire at all?!?!?

Thats not for beginners.

 

[Saltyag2010]

Combat accuracy-

good = you hit what you need to hit

bad = you get hit when you don't want to, because you missed what you needed to hit.

See, it's all about perspective.

 

[Younggun]

"Combat accuracy" means hitting what you need to hit.

The whole point behind "combat accuracy" is firing just slow enough to stay on target while not wasting time trying to get a small group.

It's not an excuse, it is knowing the maximum rate of fire at which you can sustain an acceptable level of precision. Accurate shots hit the target, precise shots hit the target in the same spot.

 

[Younggun]

I haven't watched the vid yet, just responding to salty.

 

[breakingcontact]

I haven't watched the vid yet, just responding to salty.

Thats fine and i agree generally with what you said regarding "combat accuracy".

Different conversation from the video though which is titled "combat accuracy as currently taught is an excuse for poor shooting and poor instruction."

This is absolutely true. When I talk about the dot drill and people are like "why do you need to shoot tiny little groups, just hit the target" or "in a gunfight you won't use your sights anyways" these are the same folks who will claim their "combat accuracy" is good enough. Same thing with most point shooters. They dont have the skill, dont respect, understand or value the skill and arent training in the skill of being both highly accurate when needed and being able to get off some fast "combat accurate" shots when needed.

I train for the whole spectrum.

It is a real good video with good advice. I watched a few from Deadeye Steve last night. Hes a new member and sponsor here as well.

 

[Younggun]

Thats fine and i agree generally with what you said regarding "combat accuracy".

Different conversation from the video though which is titled "combat accuracy as currently taught is an excuse for poor shooting and poor instruction."

This is absolutely true. When I talk about the dot drill and people are like "why do you need to shoot tiny little groups, just hit the target" or "in a gunfight you won't use your sights anyways" these are the same folks who will claim their "combat accuracy" is good enough. Same thing with most point shooters. They dont have the skill, dont respect, understand or value the skill and arent training in the skill of being both highly accurate when needed and being able to get off some fast "combat accurate" shots when needed.

I train for the whole spectrum.

It is a real good video with good advice. I watched a few from Deadeye Steve last night. Hes a new member and sponsor here as well.

I don't disagree. If you practice shooting smaller groups, and increase the speed at which you can do so, you will also increase the speed at which you can shoot with "combat accuracy" (or self defense accuracy?). Shooting slow large groups does not equal combat accuracy.

Gonna try to watch the vid soon.

 

[breakingcontact]

Glad to have a bit of a conversation going. Hope more join in. I won't even talk about politics or religion in this thread!

 

[Ole Cowboy]

We use the knock down targets, knock it down and its close enough, you either get a KIA or WIA. The challenge facing the Infantry combat soldier is to acquire the target and not become an acquired target in the process. Our goal is to only engage when we have an overwhelming fire ratio, typically 3:1, but that is not always the case...

 

[Younggun]

Ok, watched the video. I don't disagree with everything he says, but one thing does bug me.

Do we train to shoot for the heart, or center mass? What should we train for?

 

[Moonpie]

Left eye or right eye doesn't make a difference.
Putting lead into the bad guy first is what matters.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

^^^^^^ me center mass . I was taught to shoot and move. Whilst still engaging the target. Till its dead. Then your position should have changed by then. Cover reload breath and break camp.
Assess when you leave the AO







P.S center mass is a bigger target while you are running screaming like a school girl lost in the ghetto. Myself included. But center mass. Get enough lead in center mass.
Heart shot odds go up

 

[Younggun]

To expand on what I take from combat accuracy, and based on a vid I watched for the NRA I believe.


A 6" group is fine at 5 yards. Shoot as fast as you can while maintaining that 6" group.

At 10 yards, you must shoot as fast as you can while still maintaining the 6" group.

Same rule applies at 15, 20, 25, 30, etc yards.

It's not about a group size at a specific range, it's about a group size combines with maximum speed in which that group size can be maintained.

Personally, I don't believe I should be aiming at the heart. It's been ingrained in me to aim at center mass. That allows me to fire as quickly as possible at the largest and least mobile area of the body housing the most important parts (aside from the brain). My goal will be to hit first and repeat as needed.


Now, as to his issue with trainers calling 6" good enough. That could very well be supported by me, assuming the trainers aren't keeping that group size at 6" as range increases. Accuracy (precision really) almost always plays out as an ever growing cone if all other factors remain constant. If the instructors are teaching to keep other factors constant while increasing distance an issue does exist.

I can also see that there may be differences in the point of the class. Many SD classes may be about tactics and keeping a level head, and only dealing with accuracy to the point of keeping a baseline minimum. Otherwise it would be hard to get it all in to one day or one weekend.

I guess it would be easier if I knew which classes he was referring to and exactly what the instructors were teaching. One instructor saying others are wrong isn't exactly a new thing so I have a bit of skepticism from the start.

Would like to hear SigFiends opinion.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

To expand on what I take from combat accuracy, and based on a vid I watched for the NRA I believe.


A 6" group is fine at 5 yards. Shoot as fast as you can while maintaining that 6" group.

At 10 yards, you must shoot as fast as you can while still maintaining the 6" group.

Same rule applies at 15, 20, 25, 30, etc yards.

It's not about a group size at a specific range, it's about a group size combines with maximum speed in which that group size can be maintained.

Personally, I don't believe I should be aiming at the heart. It's been ingrained in me to aim at center mass. That allows me to fire as quickly as possible at the largest and least mobile area of the body housing the most important parts (aside from the brain). My goal will be to hit first and repeat as needed.


Now, as to his issue with trainers calling 6" good enough. That could very well be supported by me, assuming the trainers aren't keeping that group size at 6" as range increases. Accuracy (precision really) almost always plays out as an ever growing cone if all other factors remain constant. If the instructors are teaching to keep other factors constant while increasing distance an issue does exist.

I can also see that there may be differences in the point of the class. Many SD classes may be about tactics and keeping a level head, and only dealing with accuracy to the point of keeping a baseline minimum. Otherwise it would be hard to get it all in to one day or one weekend.

I guess it would be easier if I knew which classes he was referring to and exactly what the instructors were teaching. One instructor saying others are wrong isn't exactly a new thing so I have a bit of skepticism from the start.

Would like to hear SigFiends opinion.

Well put great one.
Stfutac code word.

 

[Younggun]

I will send out a notice when we have a class in the area.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

I will send out a notice when we have a class in the area.

Pluuuuuease great 1

 

[ROGER4314]

I run with guys who spray bullets. They like to push me into getting the "Lantac" muzzle brake so the rifle stays on target while spraying. I don't shoot like that and never did so having an effective muzzle brake is a waste of money. One shot.......one dead thing. If a target isn't available, then why shoot?

That's how I do it.

Flash

 

[Ole Cowboy]

Left eye or right eye doesn't make a difference.
Putting lead into the bad guy first is what matters.

When I was much younger while I favored my right side, either worked for me, especially the M 16 vs the old M 14. Due to it being so light I could shoot it off either side with ease. But I guess age has taken its toll on being ambi...

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

I run with guys who spray bullets. They like to push me into getting the "Lantac" muzzle brake so the rifle stays on target while spraying. I don't shoot like that and never did so having an effective muzzle brake is a waste of money. One shot.......one dead thing. If a target isn't available, then why shoot?

That's how I do it.

Flash

Sniper motto is not