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Canted backup sight question

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  • tondreagmech

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    Looking for some advice from the collective. I do some two gun competitions a couple times a year. The last couple of shoots I have been to, I am seeing more folks running a magnified optic on top and a small footprint red dot canted off to the side. They seem to be leaving the top optic magnified for range and then rolling the rifle to use the red dot up close. I’ve seen several gunfighter type trainers putting videos out and trainings out on this same setup. The claim is to be able to transition between distance quicker without having to work a throw lever. I’ve also heard that you can acquire the next target With the red dot and then role the rifle and be on target with the magnified optic. Anyone ever tried or currently use a setup like this? What’s the pros and cons?


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    toddnjoyce

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    Pro: with practice, maintaining cheek weld during transition becomes natural as opposed to the MRDO mounting on top of magnified optic.

    Con: slower than using a lower power optic like a fixed 4x ACOG type reticle.

    Either way, you’re going to slow down to go faster.
     

    etmo

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    I'm currently working on it. My 2 cents is that with practice, it's faster in some types of stages (significant variation in the range of targets) for most shooters (not all!) and there's no slowdown for stages that don't require the offset dot, because you just don't use it.

    The downside is the practice required. If you stop putting in the work, you'll lose it, and you'll have to roll that rock back up the hill again.

    This is one of things you don't want to start unless you're going to stick with it. Like Todd mentioned, cheek weld is a big issue, some people tense up in their neck and etc, etc, etc.

    As far as the optics go, it depends on the particular discipline. If you're shooting PCC, you're often just going to have 2 red dots with no magnification, just different zeroes. Otherwise, you'll have something on top with magnification, an LPVO or similar.

    They have fully adjustable offset mounts these days to help you stay as comfortable as possible while switching as quickly as possible. What angle, how far out from the receiver. Most of the best competition shooters use them in the PCC division (but not all!), but they have the time to practice.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Todd, have you tried it?


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    Tried it? For four years it was how my duty weapon was set up and for six more years after that, I still have an AR configured that way.

    Specifically, that one is running a PSA 5x Prism with a Romeo 1 on a 45* offset. Accuracy with either optic gives me a combat range against a normal human sized target of zero to 600+ yds with confidence. Even if you go with a 3moa or less dot, you risk hits out of the A zone especially the closer to 100 you take it. In a competition scenario, I’d likely use that when there’s a string of rifle targets close in followed or preceded by long range (100+yd) strings.

    For my use case, the offset allows a quick switch to a field of view wider than what a Binden fov with a
    5x magnification provides.

    Hope that makes sense.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    That's very interesting. I didn't know offset optics had a home on duty weapons. Learned something new!

    When we upgraded from the M68, the configuration on our M4s was an ACOG ECOS (mrdo attached to the eyebox). You can barely tell it’s there in the photo of the guy talking on the radio.


    On mfg website: https://www.trijicon.com/our-story/trijicon-history

    We had some personal preference to rearrange stuff and that’s the way I went. The problem the MRDO in any configuration is/was it can be damaged pretty easily. Also, if you hang something like a PEQ-15 off the front of the rifle, that kind of makes the offset MRDO worthless. A lot of times we used the PEQ-15 to handoff targets between teams so we could maintain positive ID while building a target deck.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Looking for some advice from the collective. I do some two gun competitions a couple times a year. The last couple of shoots I have been to, I am seeing more folks running a magnified optic on top and a small footprint red dot canted off to the side. They seem to be leaving the top optic magnified for range and then rolling the rifle to use the red dot up close. I’ve seen several gunfighter type trainers putting videos out and trainings out on this same setup. The claim is to be able to transition between distance quicker without having to work a throw lever. I’ve also heard that you can acquire the next target With the red dot and then role the rifle and be on target with the magnified optic. Anyone ever tried or currently use a setup like this? What’s the pros and cons?


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    Pros:
    - makes you look like a cool kid
    - if you ACTUALLY are a cool kid it can work

    Cons:
    - it takes a lot of training to become proficient
    - it solves a problem most users don't have
    - one more thing to break

    If you need it, you'll know.

    If you want it, there is nothing wrong with setting up with one. I am not about setting my rifle up for looks. Looks add weight and are expensive.

    I rarely run more than 2x on my LPVO. A target from punching range to 200m can be engaged without any odd movements and anything beyond 200m where I need more precision I'll have time for zooming in a bit.

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    toddnjoyce

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    - one more thing to break
    This is only a con if you’re paying for this stuff yourself.
    …I rarely run more than 2x on my LPVO. A target from punching range to 200m can be engaged without any odd movements and anything beyond 200m where I need more precision I'll have time for zooming in a bit….
    Which is why I really like the 4x ACOG/ACSS combo. It does just about everything practical good enough for just about everybody.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    This is only a con if you’re paying for this stuff yourself.

    Which is why I really like the 4x ACOG/ACSS combo. It does just about everything practical good enough for just about everybody.
    You don't want to rotate your rifle to find a busted sight... they are tough and its a secondary sight so it shouldn't leave you SOL and probably adds redundancy.

    I have a 4x ACOG on my work rifle and a 1-8x ffp ACSS reticled LPVO on the one I use for 2-gun biathlon (run-and-guns).

    TCOLE only allows 5x for patrol rifles... I've considered a 1-5x lpvo from Steiner, but I have never "needed" either more or less magnification than my ACOG gives me. if I were to change from my ACOG I'd probably go with an Eotech since the reality is I can hit targets way farther than the avg/mean/median rifle engagement range and closer is more likely than farther.

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