Are you wasting your range time?

[Renegade]

I have never seen so much time, money put into training & gear for something that is almost never going to happen in my one's life. It is hilarious to watch discussion about this on the boards. It is even more hilarious to go to a range and see some of these folks (I have).

Based on this AAR, it seems little has changed and my beliefs are validated. Too bad theswe guys wasted their $$$.

Tactical Response - Dont waste your time or your money - Page 1 - AR15.COM

 

[Steve M]

Seriously? Standing at a bench, spending all the time in the world aiming, then bragging about how well you shoot is not a test of one's skills. Hell, most people don't train with their weak hand. At least IDPA involves shooting on the move, and learning to use cover.

Agree with you there, but there are other much more effective ways to train. It starts with understanding the gunfight "problem": it's a "two-way range" where someone is trying just as hard to shoot/stab you as you are trying to shoot them.

Originally Posted by Renegade
I have never seen so much time, money put into training & gear for something that is almost never going to happen in my one's life. It is hilarious to watch discussion about this on the boards. It is even more hilarious to go to a range and see some of these folks (I have).

Will it be just as hilarious when you or your loved ones are attacked? Look bro, you said it yourself, "almost never going to happen" means it could happen, and I refuse to be a victim. Building the skills to be able to defend you and yours is just being prudent, like buying car insurance, setting up a living will, installing a smoke detector, unplugging the coffee pot before you leave on vacation, etc.

When you look at it this way the time and money spent seems like a much better investment than playing golf, racing cars, buying a boat, or any number of other "pass times".

You are not safe, better get busy.

 

[Renegade]

Will it be just as hilarious when you or your loved ones are attacked? Look bro, you said it yourself, "almost never going to happen" means it could happen, and I refuse to be a victim. Building the skills to be able to defend you and yours is just being prudent, like buying car insurance, setting up a living will, installing a smoke detector, unplugging the coffee pot before you leave on vacation, etc. .

Sorry I do not train for scenarios that have near zero chance of occurring, I train for the ones that do occur.

So yes it will be hilarious if the day ever comes and you find out Renegade found himself squared up to a nonmoving target, from 5-10 yards in an open field, loaded down with a TAPCO'd/Magpul'd gun, Oakley Sunglasses, camelback, drop holster, and all the other bullshit you see these weekend one-way commandos wearing at these training classes.

Feel free to document any instance of a civilian getting into shootout in one of these training class situations. I have never heard of one.

Just read the AAR link I posted for an example of one of these clown operations.

It should be illegal to even call that "training". Airsofters and paint ball enthusiasts develop have better skills.

 

[Renegade]

TYPES OF PEOPLE YOU MEET AT A TYPICAL AR CARBINE CLASS

Bolt-On Boy - A young guy who has managed to add 10 lbs to his rifle by bolting on every accessory ever made. Close inspection will reveal some are installed backwards, some he does not know what they are for. Most fall off after the first 10 minutes of sustained firing. Spends time after class combing through ground looking for all the gear that fell off.

Camo-Man - A 40-ish guy with mis-matched, worn-out camo, and a beer belly that would make Santa Claus jealous. Generally has no idea how his gun works. Usually tells good stories (even if fake), about ATF encounters, Black Helicopters, etc.

Queenie - Late 20s guy who wants to complete class and still claim his rifle is NIB. Usually has a new Colt rifle, which he tries to fire as little as possible. Gun often malfunctions on first shot because he cannot bring himself to allow the B/C to slam home during load, thus not locking bolt. Easily identified by possession of Colt 6920LE, towel in back pocket to wipe down finish, and constantly checking to see if factory grease is still in gun.

Spec-Ops Guy - This guy is in his late 30s to early 40s, who wants everyone to think he is some kind of former Special Operations Operator. He is smart enough though not to claim any association with any specific agency or operation and thus be called out as a phony. Lack of shooting skills and gun handling techniques give him away every time.

Gear Queer - This is the alter-ego of the Bolt-On Boy. Gear Queer usually has a near-stock rifle, but has every possible piece of tactical clothing or accessory attached to his body, elbow pads, knee pads, Molle pouches, Oakley glasses, 5.11, etc.

Super Trooper - This is an LEO stuck in a boring LEO job, who yearns to be SWAT. Comes to class decked out in his LEO jumpsuit, wearing badge, cuffs, ASP, etc. Usually has poor skills and has trouble hitting the targets. Often shows up with issue gun that is NOT zero'd. Tries to get LE training credit for the class.

Quiet Guy - Ordinary guy in 30s with typical clothing, typical gun. Does not seek out others, but will converse if approached. Often not noticed because his gun works, and he follows instructor directions well and thus does not stand out.

Wannabee - Young guy who aspires to be FBI/HRT, SFOD, SEAL or even LEO/SWAT operator. Has good skills, eager to learn, and would probably do well in one of these positions if selected. However, he has played his life cards incorrectly (knocked up GF, DUI, etc,.) and thus will never achieve his dream.

Franken-Guy - This guy shows up with a rifle in which no two parts are assembled/made by the same company. In some cases he delays start of class as he needs to borrow tools to complete his rifle build, which he only started the night before. Not uncommon for him to have UPS deliver parts to the class to complete his build. Naturally his gun does not work, but he brags about how he saved $50 building it himself, and his gun will run 100%, once he gets the kinks worked out.

That Guy - That guy.

 

[Steve M]

I think we are talking around each other.

Sorry I do not train for scenarios that have near zero chance of occurring, I train for the ones that do occur.

So what scenarios do you train for?

So yes it will be hilarious if the day ever comes and you find out Renegade found himself squared up to a nonmoving target, from 5-10 yards in an open field, loaded down with a TAPCO'd/Magpul'd gun, Oakley Sunglasses, camelback, drop holster, and all the other bullshit you see these weekend one-way commandos wearing at these training classes.

Agree this is unlikely for anyone, especially a civilian.

Just read the AAR link I posted for an example of one of these clown operations.

I have never been to a Yeager course, and that's a pretty venomous review, so it's hard to be objective. I will say that some of that does sound bad, some of it sounds like sour grapes; but any class where someone shoots themselves is probably not a typical example.

Airsofters and paint ball enthusiasts develop have better skills.

Agree.

 

[Renegade]

So what scenarios do you train for?

The ones I read about every day in the newspaper since I could first learn to read.

Examples - Home invasions, car-jackings, muggings, convenience store robberies, armed robberies, bank robberies, etc.

Also note a significant number of these occur at night, so I do a lot of night shooting. Very few of these training classes do anything at night - another problem.

 

[jtriron]

I am about to go waste some of my time at the range.

 

[Steve M]

The ones I read about every day in the newspaper since I could first learn to read.

Examples - Home invasions, car-jackings, muggings, convenience store robberies, armed robberies, bank robberies, etc.

Also note a significant number of these occur at night, so I do a lot of night shooting. Very few of these training classes do anything at night - another problem.

Totally agree, those are the primary threats to civilians.

For civilians a rifle course represents a solution to a less likely problem, but it's still another layer of "insurance". Like buying and storing gold, you don't need it until you need it.

 

[Renegade]

For civilians a rifle course represents a solution to a less likely problem, but it's still another layer of "insurance". Like buying and storing gold, you don't need it until you need it.

Rifle skills are good thing to have, but from AAR I have read, most of the so-called classes do not teach rifle skills.

 

[SOFDOG]

If any Instructor tries to tell the class that they should do something cause "thats what we did on the teams" then the class should realize that they wasted their money. I have seen these types and I know what they are......posers trying to cash in on their previous association with an organization.

Instructors should be able to explain why a certain technique or tactic or procedure is done is as much detail as needed so the student understands the "why" and not just the "how".

Also, team tactics in the offense or defense are drastically different from civilian self-defense tactics / principles - similar to my self defense plans change when I have the wife and kids with me vs being alone. However, marksmanship principles are the same for everybody, so a good tactician may not be a great marksman, and the reverse is also true.

I strongly agree with everyone seeking out formal training from reputable instructors, but do the research, read the reviews, and find out as much as you can before you commit resources.

Kenan F
FAST Inc
www.fast762.com

 

[M. Sage]

There's a solution: IDPA

That's still trigger time, not training.

There are things that IDPA does that don't reflect real life for crap. One of my biggest grips is the rule dealing with this:

"No loaded ammunition carriers may be left behind if the shooter moves to another firing position."

Ok, so I'm going to waste time while there are "bad guys" downrange, presumably looking to eat my liver and risk my life over a magazine that has 2 or 3 rounds in it? **** it, I'll come back for that mag later. When people are looking to hurt you, time is important. Almost always more important than making sure you didn't leave 2 or 3 rounds behind...

"Oh, but that could save your life later!" Yeah, if there is a later... Tell ya what, if there is, I'll go back and get the ammo.

Oh, and the 10 round limit (**** you, Jeff Cooper). And power factor (and the same to Cooper).

It's a game. It's not training. It's trigger time. Trigger time is good, but don't let a game teach you bad habits (like stopping to stow three rounds in the middle of a gun fight).

 

[M. Sage]

I mean... Just look at "power factor". Weight times velocity divided by 1000. That's not a scientific way to do anything! You can run a pistol that's less powerful just by pushing more lead. Force is mass (weight) times velocity squared (meaning you multiply by velocity twice).

Gah!

 

[Kingsnake]

As a successful graduate of the original "Gunsite Orange" in the late 1980's I knew Jeff Cooper. What you may not be aware of is that before his passing in September of 2006 he had long abandoned IPSC and condemned it in writing as being impractical and suitable only for gamesmanship. Col Cooper was a class act and did not mind admitting when he was wrong.

The flip side of this coin is that former NYC Police Officer Jim Cirillo and I were firearms instructors at FLETC in the early 90's where I learned of his exploits on the Stakeout Squad. Jim killed close to 20 bad guys armed only with 2 S&W Model 10's loaded with LRN ammo, some as far away as 20 yards and on the run. Jim's unwavering opinion was that his skill in gunfighting came from longterm IPSC and PPC competition, and one of the subsequent criteria for assignment to his Team was that an Officer have competition experience.

How all of this applies to you I cannot say, but both of these gentleman were active handgun competitors in the venues popular in their day, and when the time came to shoot for blood they prevailed.

 

[johnnydangerousilly]

some really great insights here.

 

[leonidas]

As a successful graduate of the original "Gunsite Orange" in the late 1980's I knew Jeff Cooper. What you may not be aware of is that before his passing in September of 2006 he had long abandoned IPSC and condemned it in writing as being impractical and suitable only for gamesmanship. Col Cooper was a class act and did not mind admitting when he was wrong.

The flip side of this coin is that former NYC Police Officer Jim Cirillo and I were firearms instructors at FLETC in the early 90's where I learned of his exploits on the Stakeout Squad. Jim killed close to 20 bad guys armed only with 2 S&W Model 10's loaded with LRN ammo, some as far away as 20 yards and on the run. Jim's unwavering opinion was that his skill in gunfighting came from longterm IPSC and PPC competition, and one of the subsequent criteria for assignment to his Team was that an Officer have competition experience.

How all of this applies to you I cannot say, but both of these gentleman were active handgun competitors in the venues popular in their day, and when the time came to shoot for blood they prevailed.

When you truly think about it, that type of training at a very minimum gives the handler experience with his weapon system and using it under stressful situations (competition and one the run). While we can't be prepared/trained for every scenario, we might as well be prepared/trained for as many as we can afford.

 

[TexasBrandon]

I just go to the range to enjoy myself, I don't need to prove anything to anyone anymore.

 

[Designated]

Everyone can do whatever they want, it's the good ole US of A. I don't think it's about proving anything though. If you picked up shooting for a sport more power to you. Then there are those who would rely on it for defense, those people should seek out all the different types of real world training they can.

I believe if you just go to the range to pop off a few then you think you are good to go if it "came down to it" your in trouble. I am undecided on Idpa as I have never competed only watched, I will say that from what I've seen it looks fun but not what I would choose if I wanted modern gun defense training.

But to each his own right?

 

[V-Tach]

No wasted range time today....

22 Monday.........rimfire fun all day today...........

 

[no2gates]

> 10 years HAS to be a record.

 

[SQLGeek]

I've seen >10 years before but at least we know V-Tach isn't just trying to get to 25 posts...