28 years ago today...

[candcallen]

It does go bang...

Will not "cut" reinforced concrete pillars at the other end of the parking garage...

Does not explain why? there were no ATF Agents in the building that day. Does not explain why there were no ATF Agents offspring in the Day Care Center that day?

Your not supposed to snort the fruit loops. Just poor milk over them and eat them.

So what do you think about the twin towers mr Jones? Missiles? Government implosion?

Buildings with open bottom floors like that are notoriously weak when lateral forces are applied to them. New ones are even banned in some earthquake prone areas as they are always the first to collapse. Dont need to be a structural engineer to know that. You should also do some cursory research on just what anfo and shaped charges can do. It's much more than just for filling drill holes.

Quit looking for the conspiracy bs in everything. Tim McVeigh spent months building practice bombs. Picked a soft target like every other evil piece of shit. Killed a bunch of innocent people. Deserved to die regardless of motive.

Koresh was an evil child molesting piece of shit who thought his motives were justified as well. Imagine that. Both crazy evil bastards doing evil shit.


Just for the professional gotcha players...
If anyone thinks anything I said is in any way supportive of the bastards at the ATF or them and the FBIs or DOJs handling of waco your an ignorant fool and can go AUTOFORNICATE.

 

[bbbass]

If anyone thinks anything I said is in any way supportive of the bastards at the ATF or them and the FBIs or DOJs handling of waco your an ignorant fool and can go AUTOFORNICATE.

Pre-emptive phuck off notice.... I like it!!!

 

[bbbass]

I wonder why BLM, AntiFA, Occupy, etc can lay siege to cities, buildings, and whatnot, and not be molested in the least, but paste a group with a right leaning label and they get the hammer. Are our masters that afraid of the right???

 

[cygunner]

I wonder why BLM, AntiFA, Occupy, etc can lay siege to cities, buildings, and whatnot, and not be molested in the least, but paste a group with a right leaning label and they get the hammer. Are our masters that afraid of the right???

Ya think?

 

[bbbass]

View attachment 252966

And it's damn well going to stay up too - Pelosi/Schumer/AOC/Wadler/et al

 

[cycleguy2300]

It does go bang...

Will not "cut" reinforced concrete pillars at the other end of the parking garage...

Does not explain why? there were no ATF Agents in the building that day. Does not explain why there were no ATF Agents offspring in the Day Care Center that day?

Got pics?

Detcord won't "cut" a reinforced concrete pillar either.

Pretty sure someone would notice a bunch of detcord running from colum to colum with a bunch of wraps around them too.

You can do a lot with detcord, like breaching charges and cutting small trees, but what you describe isn't going to happen.

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[deemus]

He absolutely was a pedophile. I am shocked anyone would try to deny that. Testimony given by kids and parents showed this.

Vernon Howell was a scumbag. Period.

He was screwing every female from age 14 up, except the old ladies. He planted his seed and it was over. I actually talked to a woman that was in there.

 

[Coop45]

He was screwing every female from age 14 up, except the old ladies. He planted his seed and it was over. I actually talked to a woman that was in there.

It doesn't matter, he was denied due process. Any less is just hearsay.

 

[deemus]

He was in fact denied due process.

He wasn't on trial for raping 14 year olds. The fact he was doing it does matter. A victim's testimony isn't hearsay.

 

[Coop45]

He was in fact denied due process.

He wasn't on trial for raping 14 year olds. The fact he was doing it does matter. A victim's testimony isn't hearsay.

He wasn't on trial because the government used the army to kill them all.

 

[Lonesome Dove]

No this attack shouldn’t have happened. But they had every chance to leave.
Bad deal all the way around.
And the head assholes should have been charged to the fullest.

 

[deemus]

He wasn't on trial because the government used the army to kill them all.

That, we agree on.

 

[Axxe55]

He absolutely was a pedophile. I am shocked anyone would try to deny that. Testimony given by kids and parents showed this.

Vernon Howell was a scumbag. Period.

ATF was grandstanding. Wanted to make a splash to justify their existence. Made a splash all right.

The sheriff had arrested Howell before. Would wait until Howell went into town (weekly trip, made alone). Always went along peacefully.

But the ATF would not give him the option to do this.

Just because the ATF royally screwed up is no reason to make Howell a martyr.

I suspect he could have been. He was very charismatic and was running a cult. So, it's entirely possible he was a pedophile, but from what I have read in the past, those allegations and statements were made after he was dead. Remember due process of law? Right to face your accusers in court and to refute their allegations? Kind of hard to do any of that when a person is dead. And if those allegations were true, he should have been arrested, tried in court and if convicted, serving a very long prison sentence. Not murdered.

And how do we know that the testimony given was truthful? How do we know that the testimony wasn't manipulated for the self-serving needs of those federal agencies, to justify their actions in murdering Koresh and others that day?

I don't see Koresh as any hero, or a martyr for any cause. Not by a long-shot, but the feds screwed the pooch big time that day, and denied Koresh of his due process of law.

 

[oldag]

I suspect he could have been. He was very charismatic and was running a cult. So, it's entirely possible he was a pedophile, but from what I have read in the past, those allegations and statements were made after he was dead. Remember due process of law? Right to face your accusers in court and to refute their allegations? Kind of hard to do any of that when a person is dead. And if those allegations were true, he should have been arrested, tried in court and if convicted, serving a very long prison sentence. Not murdered.

And how do we know that the testimony given was truthful? How do we know that the testimony wasn't manipulated for the self-serving needs of those federal agencies, to justify their actions in murdering Koresh and others that day?

I don't see Koresh as any hero, or a martyr for any cause. Not by a long-shot, but the feds screwed the pooch big time that day, and denied Koresh of his due process of law.

The allegations were around well before he burned. And there were just too many stating the same things. And what the abused said was often not to law enforcement (or repeated away from law enforcement). Nobody around Waco had any doubt. Loosen up that tin foil a bit. You don't normally go down that route.

Never said he should not have been properly arrested and tried. Have said quite the opposite in the past. But that does not mean that he wasn't as guilty as sin.

While I agree that the ATF should never have gone in, he could have surrendered at any point and saved all those peoples' lives.

 

[Axxe55]

The allegations were around well before he burned. And there were just too many stating the same things. And what the abused said was often not to law enforcement (or repeated away from law enforcement). Nobody around Waco had any doubt. Loosen up that tin foil a bit. You don't normally go down that route.

Never said he should not have been properly arrested and tried. Have said quite the opposite in the past. But that does not mean that he wasn't as guilty as sin.

While I agree that the ATF should never have gone in, he could have surrendered at any point and saved all those peoples' lives.

I do suspect he was guilty of what the allegations that were made. But I recollect those allegations were made after he was dead. That gives me pause to believe them just on face value. If the allegations were made before he was dead, then yes, that puts them into a different light for sure.

But I also suspect the feds used those allegations to justify their actions that day. IF he was a pedophile, he should be rotting in prison.

In no way am I saying Koresh should be granted a free pass by any means, but the feds still screwed up big time.

 

[Glenn B]

In what I quoted, it appeared you said zero about it being opinion. That you stated it as fact was rather obvious, at least to me but I have been wrong before. Anyway, here it is again:

Keep in mind that the DEA was created and the ATF was re-tasked in a knee jerk reaction after the 1968 assignations of MLK and RFK. When you need to staff and arm a federal agency in a hasty manner, where do you get those people?

The answer is a sad one, you hire every graduate of FLETC you can. The problem is that all the A and B students have been scooped up by FBI, Border Patrol, USPS, and any number of other established agencies. That only leaves the C and D students that barely graduated. Many washed out over time, but some stayed and went on to run things. To me, that explains a lot.

 

[mp_tx]

I suspect he could have been. He was very charismatic and was running a cult. So, it's entirely possible he was a pedophile, but from what I have read in the past, those allegations and statements were made after he was dead. Remember due process of law? Right to face your accusers in court and to refute their allegations? Kind of hard to do any of that when a person is dead. And if those allegations were true, he should have been arrested, tried in court and if convicted, serving a very long prison sentence. Not murdered.

And how do we know that the testimony given was truthful? How do we know that the testimony wasn't manipulated for the self-serving needs of those federal agencies, to justify their actions in murdering Koresh and others that day?

I don't see Koresh as any hero, or a martyr for any cause. Not by a long-shot, but the feds screwed the pooch big time that day, and denied Koresh of his due process of law.

So using your logic, Jefferey Epstein could be innocent because he did not have a chance at due process because of his untimely death?


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[Coop45]

The allegations were around well before he burned. And there were just too many stating the same things. And what the abused said was often not to law enforcement (or repeated away from law enforcement). Nobody around Waco had any doubt. Loosen up that tin foil a bit. You don't normally go down that route.

Never said he should not have been properly arrested and tried. Have said quite the opposite in the past. But that does not mean that he wasn't as guilty as sin.

While I agree that the ATF should never have gone in, he could have surrendered at any point and saved all those peoples' lives.

The ATF was attacking his home when he could have been arrested in town without a long standoff that resulted in the deaths of innocent people. Unless you believe the children were criminals.

 

[candcallen]

Were the ATF wrong about the weapons Koresh had?

Obviously not.

They phucked up the whole arrest no doubt, but the doomsday cult members being doomsday cult members acted predictably when the ATF came knocking and would have done the same regardless of weather Koresh was arrested off site first.

Without Koresh there the chances of the extended siege are probably much lower and a better outcome much higher. More people would probably have come out on their own.

All parties are equally responsible for the initial wild west shit show. No one had to die, they wernt going anywhere. Once surrounded there was no danger to anyone. They should have arrested Koresh off site then settled in to wait them out. The Arrest/assault plan was doomed to failure from inception.

 

[Axxe55]

So using your logic, Jefferey Epstein could be innocent because he did not have a chance at due process because of his untimely death?


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Guilt or innocence is irrelevant. Due process of the law is your right. Just like the right to bear arms, or to choose where and how you worship, or the freedom from unlawful searches and seizures.

Do we suspend or deprive a person of those rights simply because we think they are guilty, or if they are proven guilty? Huge difference.