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What should I do when buying firearm from a remote party?

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  • majormadmax

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    Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

    In regard to transferring firearms between individuals residing in the same state, any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Please note that there may be State and local laws that regulate firearm transactions. Any person considering acquiring or transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local firearms restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at http://www.naag.org/.

    Most Frequently Asked Firearms Questions and Answers - ATF
    https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0813-firearms-top-12-qaspdf/download

    Note: handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715).

    So yes, he could ship (via common courier, and not USPS) a firearm to you if both of you are in the same state.

    How much you will trust a seller to do so depends on a variety of variables. It's your call based on how comfortable you feel with it (and how much money you are willing to "gamble" on it).
    Target Sports
     

    rotor

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    Note: handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715).

    So yes, he could ship (via common courier, and not USPS) a firearm to you if both of you are in the same state.

    How much you will trust a seller to do so depends on a variety of variables. It's your call based on how comfortable you feel with it (and how much money you are willing to "gamble" on it).
    I believe USPS you can ship long gun and shotgun by USPS if same state shipment (in Texas, not some states like California). Can not do handguns by USPS. Check the link I gave in an earlier post. Tells you how to not label the package and what you need to do.
     

    TX OMFS

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    Mind sharing how exactly did you use the ffl as escrow?

    And yes, with forum members it's a lot easier. Already purchased an item from a member and didn't think twice before sending him the funds. That's not the same case with a stranger from the www...
    Exactly like you already discussed except I've let the seller pick the FFL then I just verified they are an FFL. I would think virtually all real FFLs have too much to lose in a small time scam.

    I made arrangements to send the $ to the FFL in the name of the FFL. FFL takes in the weapon and sends it to my FFL. Easy nough.
     

    clawmarks

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    I made arrangements to send the $ to the FFL in the name of the FFL. FFL takes in the weapon and sends it to my FFL. Easy nough.
    You sent the money to the FFL, and they transfer it to the seller? That's interesting, how can something like this happen? I'd expect them to avoid handling money as a middle man... This sounds like the safest way to go (if you can't do f2f), if FFL will be inclined to do something like it. Will check.
     

    TX OMFS

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    You sent the money to the FFL, and they transfer it to the seller? That's interesting, how can something like this happen? I'd expect them to avoid handling money as a middle man... This sounds like the safest way to go (if you can't do f2f), if FFL will be inclined to do something like it. Will check.
    I paid one an escrow fee. The other one did it for no cost.
     

    majormadmax

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    I believe USPS you can ship long gun and shotgun by USPS if same state shipment (in Texas, not some states like California). Can not do handguns by USPS. Check the link I gave in an earlier post. Tells you how to not label the package and what you need to do.

    Here's the actual code...
    18 U.S. Code § 1715.Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

    Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

    Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 781; May 24, 1949, ch. 139, § 40, 63 Stat. 95; Pub. L. 91–375, § 6(j)(24), Aug. 12, 1970, 84 Stat. 779; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(H), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, § 607(f), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3511.)
     

    Glenn B

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    The problem is most common carriers will not ship between nonlicensees
    And how would they know if the guy is a licensee or not? I have shipped firearms via UPS many, many times and as far as I remember only once have I ever been asked to see the FFL of the consignee and that was in the UPS in Texarkana, AR and then I did not show it because I did not have it with me and because a supervisor informed the UPS clerk it was not needed. Now I usually carry the buyer's FFL with me but they have not asked for it again at UPS. UPS is pretty good at shipping firearms and making it easy to do in my estimation. FedEx I cannot speak about. Only shipped a handgun once through them and that was with a prepaid label to Taurus for a recalled pistol. They took it no questions asked.
     

    Renegade

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    And how would they know if the guy is a licensee or not? I have shipped firearms via UPS many, many times and as far as I remember only once have I ever been asked to see the FFL of the consignee and that was in the UPS in Texarkana, AR and then I did not show it because I did not have it with me and because a supervisor informed the UPS clerk it was not needed. Now I usually carry the buyer's FFL with me but they have not asked for it again at UPS. UPS is pretty good at shipping firearms and making it easy to do in my estimation. FedEx I cannot speak about. Only shipped a handgun once through them and that was with a prepaid label to Taurus for a recalled pistol. They took it no questions asked.

    How would USPS know if you shipped a handgun? If you are gonna break the rules, go big or go home.

    The most common problem would be if it is lost, stolen or damaged.
     

    Glenn B

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    How would USPS know if you shipped a handgun? If you are gonna break the rules, go big or go home.

    The most common problem would be if it is lost, stolen or damaged.
    Why do you so often seemingly twist things around? You said nothing about handguns in your post that I quoted and I said nothing in mine about them and now your latest reply makes it seem all about handguns (which UPS requires to be shipped next day air) by 'asking' how would UPS know if I shipped a handgun. Then you tell me if I am going to break the rules...tell me exactly what rules do you mean?

    I always tell UPS what is in the shipment, that way it is insured properly and handled properly by UPS. I do not ship handguns by them, only longarms. There is no rule of which I am aware saying I have to tell them it is going to an FFL or an individual when I ship a longarm and if intrastate it need not go through an FFL nor does it need to when being shipped to a manufacturer for repair or recall.

    When I shipped the handgun via FedEx, I told them what was in it and it had a prepaid product return label showing it going to the manufacturer who told me they already informed FedEx what was being shipped before I did so. FedEx asked zero questions.

    So now tell me - what rules were broken if any! As for showing the consignee's FFL, there is no rule requiring such at UPS as far as I am aware; in fact, the supervisor told the employee there is no such rule that she had mistakenly thought was in place when I as once asked for the FFL.
     

    Renegade

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    Then you tell me if I am going to break the rules...tell me exactly what rules do you mean?.

    Non-licensees who ship handguns via common carrier often break the following rules. Using UPS as example:

    https://www.ups.com/us/en/help-center/packaging-and-supplies/special-care-shipments/firearms.page

    1st Rule broken, they do not accept shipments between non-licensees.

    UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

    2nd Rule broken, you did not verbally notify them it was a handgun.

    When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.

    3rd Rule usually broken, did not require Signature.

    The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required and Direct Delivery Only services for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun or a firearm suppressor, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.

    4th Rule usually broken, used improper pickup method.

    Firearms (including handguns) may be shipped only through a UPS Scheduled Pickup Account (specifically, Daily Pickup, Daily On-Route Pickup, UPS Smart Pickup®, and Day-Specific Pickup), or through a UPS Customer Center (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for shipment via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS On-Call Pickup®, and may not be tendered to or dropped off at locations of The UPS Store®, any third party retailer, or any UPS Access Point™ location.
     
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    Renegade

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    So, if I'm not mistaken, one of ya'll says USPS, and one of ya'll says UPS.

    My comments were relevant to UPS, in the thread context of non-licensees shipping handguns.

    Then someone brought up breaking common carriers rules. I then pointed out, if you are going to break the rules want not just ship it USPS and break their rules for only $6.20?
     

    Renegade

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    You said nothing about handguns in your post that I quoted and I said nothing in mine about them

    The two posts (21/22) prior to mine were all about shipping handguns. Did not think I need to quote them all to maintain context of handguns.
     

    Glenn B

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    Excellent, still not one rule ever broken by me when shipping via UPS. I am clean as a whistle as they say. I do it all properly, must be in part due to my upbringing and in part to the integrity I exercised when I served in my law enforcement career. I also don't ever want to get arrested, go to jail, and after a week of gang rapes have a telephone booth easily slid up my ungreased keester. Better to do things right than wrong.

    Edited to add: By the way, my question for you was how would they know if the guy you are shipping to has an FFL after you said they do not take shipments between non-licensees. You evidently found fault with that and went on about doing things against the rule. Now you have quoted a lot of rules but and I have read them twice and still do not see a requirement that would somehow make it so UPS knows you are shipping to an FFL. So what is the point of all the BS that has little to do with my original question for you. How would UPS know if you are shipping to an FFL or not?
     
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    clawmarks

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    Asked the guy for a video of the gun, but "he doesn't have a nice cam to do it with" ... Yup.
    Spoke to multiple scammers from gunlist / txguntrader over the weekend, so some elimination tactics I found to be helpful:
    1. asking for a video
    2. asking for a picture (or video) with an arbitrary irrelevant item
    3. asking specific questions about the operation or attributes of the gun
    4. letting them know in advance i will be using a 3rd party FFL as proxy
    5. right click a picture --> search in google, easy to see pictures that are getting re-used by these a**holes

    scammers are lazy, they'll just move to an easier target.
    make sure to flag their ad when you're on to them.
     
    Every Day Man
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