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  • cycleguy2300

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Mar 19, 2010
    6,767
    96
    Austin, Texas
    So the cop on the street gets to do whatever they want until a court says otherwise? Got it. You are the law.
    Even the military doesn't have to follow unlawful orders.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    We have provided you facts and you respond that you don't thing they should be facts. When one party in a discussion won't accept facts there is no point continuing the discussion with them because they have set themselves up in their mind as the final arbiter of truth and will make excuses and ignore what they want to reach their desired conclusion.

    For the rest who may still be interested:
    When a court says something is lawful, it is lawful until a court says it isn't. The courts have decided what I and others have described doing for safety is "reasonable" which is the standard set in the 4th amendment.

    For anyone still feeling like "well its my right, the cop can ask but I won't comply" think about a knife. They are arms/weapons just as much as a firearm. Could it be reasonable for a officer working I'm close proximity to someone to ask them to leave their Kabar back inside on a vehicle burglary or to temporarily take that tactical folder from a meth head's pocket while they conduct a search of their vehicle? What I can do for knives with legal reason to be there, I can do with pistols or rifles.

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    TexasRedneck

    1911 Nut
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Jan 23, 2009
    14,560
    96
    New Braunfels, TX
    I have no duty to obey orders from someone without legal justification. If I'm legally required to do something, I will, but I'm not a servant and the government isn't my master.

    And I will caution you that unless you're an attorney, you're likely to end up cuffed an' stuffed, because there are nuances in most laws that make you legal until x, y or z happens - and you could well find yourself on the receiving end of some very heavy charges. The time to fight with a cop is when you get to court - because 99% of the time, a cop has a reason for what he's doing. Might not be obvious to you, but most of them just want to finish their shift and go home. If he IS out of line, the place to determine that is in a courtroom - not on the street.
     

    rotor

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 1, 2015
    4,239
    96
    Texas
    We have provided you facts and you respond that you don't thing they should be facts. When one party in a discussion won't accept facts there is no point continuing the discussion with them because they have set themselves up in their mind as the final arbiter of truth and will make excuses and ignore what they want to reach their desired conclusion.

    For the rest who may still be interested:
    When a court says something is lawful, it is lawful until a court says it isn't. The courts have decided what I and others have described doing for safety is "reasonable" which is the standard set in the 4th amendment.

    For anyone still feeling like "well its my right, the cop can ask but I won't comply" think about a knife. They are arms/weapons just as much as a firearm. Could it be reasonable for a officer working I'm close proximity to someone to ask them to leave their Kabar back inside on a vehicle burglary or to temporarily take that tactical folder from a meth head's pocket while they conduct a search of their vehicle? What I can do for knives with legal reason to be there, I can do with pistols or rifles.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
    Safety alone is not the criteria for reasonable though. The person involved needs to be involved or expected to be involved in a criminal activity. You can not just walk up to someone on their own property and order them to put their gun in the house when they are carrying legally and you have no reason to suspect them of committing a crime. If you could then no person could reasonably expect to open or conceal carry without fearing that a LEO would order them to disarm and put their gun in their house. Reasonable has to be reasonable.
    To me, coming onto the property of a black individual who has called the police to report a theft and ordering that person to put his gun in the house for your safety sounds more like racial profiling. Isn't that a reasonable assumption?
     

    V-Tach

    Watching While the Sheep Graze
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Sep 30, 2012
    8,895
    96
    Texas
    Spoke to a couple of LEO's over the weekend...both said it is not that simple....a lot of factors come into play....so many....that we can play "what if" till the cows come home....and it doesn't mean squat.....every incident will be different.......and every officer can interpret those factors differently.

    These types threads of always come down to "what if" scenarios which will be handled by LEO's who have never heard of, let alone.....ever read threads on TGT......

    jmho...
     

    jrbfishn

    TGT Addict
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Aug 9, 2013
    28,316
    96
    south of killeen
    We have provided you facts and you respond that you don't thing they should be facts. When one party in a discussion won't accept facts there is no point continuing the discussion with them because they have set themselves up in their mind as the final arbiter of truth and will make excuses and ignore what they want to reach their desired conclusion.

    For the rest who may still be interested:
    When a court says something is lawful, it is lawful until a court says it isn't. The courts have decided what I and others have described doing for safety is "reasonable" which is the standard set in the 4th amendment.

    For anyone still feeling like "well its my right, the cop can ask but I won't comply" think about a knife. They are arms/weapons just as much as a firearm. Could it be reasonable for a officer working I'm close proximity to someone to ask them to leave their Kabar back inside on a vehicle burglary or to temporarily take that tactical folder from a meth head's pocket while they conduct a search of their vehicle? What I can do for knives with legal reason to be there, I can do with pistols or rifles.

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
    Yeah, you have presented facts.
    And then presented BS scenarios that don't match the original question.
    Like I said, I have/have had quite a few friends in Law enforcement. Some lawyers as well. My neighbor was lawyer when I was in criminal justice and let me use his law books. Talked about it quite often. You are not the only one that knows anything about it.
    The Law;
    I have found that most cops will tell you only enough about it to make their life safer and easier while at work. They know that most don't know enough to say otherwise and won't check.
    Prosecutors will tell you what the Law is. And what can get you in trouble anyway.
    Defense lawyers will tell you what the law is but what they can not defend you of in spite of what it says.
    Partly because of case law. It depends on the situation and how you use it. Is it right? Sometimes.
    Apparently, you would abuse it.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    Dred

    Active Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Mar 12, 2012
    646
    46
    Houston, TX
    Reasonable has to be reasonable.
    To me, coming onto the property of a black individual who has called the police to report a theft and ordering that person to put his gun in the house for your safety sounds more like racial profiling. Isn't that a reasonable assumption?

    Well, sure, but ... 1. the officer was black. 2. it was a polite request. And, 3. I did not feel violated.
     

    BillFairbanks

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 8, 2017
    1,626
    96
    Johnson County, TX
    If you start trying to make sense now, that means there’s 17 wasted pages.

    200.gif




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    leVieux

    TSRA/NRA Life Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    I open carry everywhere I go and rarely, if ever, have problems. I get a lot of compliments and thank you as well. Depending on where you live you may see it more or less, but remember that the reason is because only about 6% of Texans have a permit and many of those don't carry at all. And of those that do, most don't open carry so the likelihood of seeing someone (even if you could see a concealed gun) is low. But, I hear positive stories in Open Carry Texas all the time. The only problems are with a few bad departments, like Olmos Park

    I have noticed that perplexing practice myself. A friend in Houston has his permits and a few pistols, has carried in the past, but now ventures into dangerous areas unarmed. He can offer no reasonable sounding explanation for this.
    leVieux
     

    rotor

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 1, 2015
    4,239
    96
    Texas
    Well, sure, but ... 1. the officer was black. 2. it was a polite request. And, 3. I did not feel violated.
    So black cops are not racially biased? I am not criticizing you but I wonder how he would have treated this old white guy.
     

    Frank59

    Wheel Gunner
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2018
    1,897
    96
    San Angelo
    @leVieux

    Houston? Yeah, he really SHOULD be carrying. And the trash from Houston gets all the way down to Galveston -- and all points between.
    -- BR
    Have not seen a lot of open carry here in Houston. I'm sure every other car on the roadway has a pistol in it. I've opened carried a few times here and never had a complaint. The main reason i don't OC is my wife does not like it. She wants me to carry but would rather me keep it hidden. She's a 5'2" fireball and I'm not messing with her!! LoL
     

    Dred

    Active Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Mar 12, 2012
    646
    46
    Houston, TX
    So black cops are not racially biased?

    IME, they absolutely can be biased. And, the direction of bias defies prediction. In this particular case, I think this officer was surprised when my cameras alerted me to his arrival. Meeting him near his car, before he'd approached my house likely raised his alertness.

    I put both firearms on top of my trash can - just inside my fence. We did our discussion in my carport just outside the same fence where we happened to be recorded by my camera system. He ran his body camera and used it to take still photos of the thief directly from my tablet.

    This was not the norm according to my experience. He was the first officer I've interacted with who actually instructed me to handle my firearms. The norm has been either no mention in public or reminder not to reach for them when having discussion concerning my rate of travel.
     

    oldag

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Feb 19, 2015
    17,426
    96
    I have noticed that perplexing practice myself. A friend in Houston has his permits and a few pistols, has carried in the past, but now ventures into dangerous areas unarmed. He can offer no reasonable sounding explanation for this.
    leVieux
    Had a DPS trooper fuss at me during a traffic stop for not having the pistol on my hip, until I explained I was on a long drive and left it in the console until I had the need to get out of the car. He said everyone that had a CHL should be carrying.
     

    BMF500

    Well-Known
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Aug 21, 2019
    1,831
    96
    Magnolia
    I've never had a problem on the few occasions I've OC'd. The only comments were inquires from a fellow redneck inquiring about "that hog leg".

    It seems some of the folks here are either paranoid of LE (I can somewhat understand) or just highly over jealous of their "rights". My perspective of LE has changed dramatically since by little brother joined PD 14yrs ago. Knowing what I know now from his perspective, I will disarm immediately upon request from LE (unless I know for a fact it's a dirty SOB that means me harm, haven't encountered that and don't want to). I've always found that it's best to be cooperative and polite. In a situation where there is an imminent threat and you are not it, it's best to prove that you are not it and GTF out of the way so they can do what they do. Yes there are some douches out there, yet the vast majority want to protect and serve.
     

    jar

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 26, 2008
    385
    46
    The Valley
    I first open carried back in the 1960s in Arizona and SoCal (until Ronald Reagan made it illegal) and cannot remember any adverse instances. Now, living down here in the Valley I sometimes open carry and again, I cannot remember any adverse reactions. In fact, for the most part it seems the general public is totally oblivious to everything beyond their smart phone. Even the folk at HEB have no issues when I use the "Curb side pick up" service.
     

    BillFairbanks

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 8, 2017
    1,626
    96
    Johnson County, TX
    Well, I wouldn't want to try OCing INSIDE any HEB, as they got on Walmart's, Kroger's, Albertson's (etc.) "requesting no one OC here anymore" bandwagon also.
    -- BR

    In my city, H-E-B posted 30.07 long before Kroger issued any anti OC statements. In fact, Kroger still hasn’t posted a 30.07 sign.


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