Hurley's Gold

Instructor Renewal Proficiency Test

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • A & P

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 4, 2014
    367
    26
    Tomball/Magnolia
    Instructors have to renew their qualifications every two years apparently. Are there any instructors in my area (NW Houston/Tomball/Magnolia) that need to renew their quals and want to do a quid pro quo?

    I have access to a private range that we can use for free for the instructor quals but just need to do each others LTC-8/LTC-100 for the proficiency. We can just shoot at the same time and then sign off on each others forms.

    Just need one instructor who is also needing to renew. Have access almost any day after 6:30 or Saturday after 3:30.
    Capitol Armory ad
     

    A & P

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 4, 2014
    367
    26
    Tomball/Magnolia
    I think you should alternate. Someone should give instructions, monitor the shooter and ensure the rules are followed

    Thanks. If it's just the two instructors, and since we both know the routine, I figure one could call the commands but both fire. I can even use a competition shot timer for proper starts and stops. I did a version of this for fun with a good friend of mine who thought he could out shoot me. It was executed exactly as I would do the test, but I shot standing next to him (and he complained of brass pelting him as reason for his 249). But the test was ran properly and I didn't see it as a problem with just the two of us shooting. Now, if we had three to five guys taking the test at the same time, I could see how it'd be better having one RO/admin and the rest shooting, and then switch. But I'm just looking for one instructor needing to trade out scoring so I think it'd be easier to monitor honestly. Also, it's an open air range so it's not like some guy would be in a private lane and could cheat a bit. It's pretty easy to tell that the guy shot two instead of one, or even six instead of five, or over time, or presented before the "up" command (or start buzzer). Even making sure they start safety on or decocked is easy enough to watch in this format.

    But I'm game for whatever. If someone was more comfortable with taking turns, I'd be fine with that. With just one student who already knows the course of fire and who should be very proficient, it should go very quickly. Four iterations of the test shouldn't take an hour.
     

    locke_n_load

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 9, 2013
    1,274
    31
    Houston, TX
    I'm in NE houston and need to renew my instructor quals, let me know when would be a good weekend this month (I work offshore and I will only be in town from the 14th to end of month).
    ETA: read your post fully. Maybe the 21st or 28th?
     

    A & P

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 4, 2014
    367
    26
    Tomball/Magnolia
    I'm in NE houston and need to renew my instructor quals, let me know when would be a good weekend this month (I work offshore and I will only be in town from the 14th to end of month).
    ETA: read your post fully. Maybe the 21st or 28th?
    I'll be out of town the 21st. I do have a guy offering to let me join in his CHL class maybe in October, but he doesn't need the renewal yet so it was just a favor through a friend. But if you want to shoot for the 28th, that might work.

    If you can call my store at 832-514-6797 or email me (not sure how this message thing works in this forum) we can work it from there. The private range we use is just about 10 minutes down the road from here.
     

    benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
    Staff member
    Lifetime Member
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
    23,933
    96
    Spring
    But the test was ran properly...
    ...it's not like some guy ... could cheat a bit. It's pretty easy to tell that the guy ... presented before the "up" command (or start buzzer). Even making sure they start safety on or decocked is easy enough to watch in this format.
    Interesting. Over the last 30+ years I've taken/audited/observed or assisted with at least a dozen classes that either were Texas CHL/LTC classes or were designed to mirror them. I've never seen an instructor give a formal "up" command or require that anyone start with the safety on or a double action pistol decocked.

    Are those, theoretically, elements of a properly run test? If so, in my experience most instructors don't pay attention to those details.
     

    A & P

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 4, 2014
    367
    26
    Tomball/Magnolia
    Interesting. Over the last 30+ years I've taken/audited/observed or assisted with at least a dozen classes that either were Texas CHL/LTC classes or were designed to mirror them. I've never seen an instructor give a formal "up" command or require that anyone start with the safety on or a double action pistol decocked.

    Are those, theoretically, elements of a properly run test? If so, in my experience most instructors don't pay attention to those details.

    The sequence is to start in low-ready, as if you just drew the firearm. For obvious reasons, the test doesn't start from a holstered position. But at the low ready, the way I was taught when initially qualifying with DPS for the instructor portion, is "low ready, safety on if you have it, decocked if you have DA." The idea is that you just drew your firearm and this is (should be) the condition it's in. On the "up" command, you execute the drill. So in one sequence it might be like this:

    "Load and make ready" (shooter seats magazine, chambers a round, enables the safety and/or decocks ...simulating a holstered condition...goes to low-ready).
    "Course of fire is one shot in two seconds, one shot in two seconds. Shooter ready. Up." (shooter engages target with one shot. has two seconds from low ready to finish the exercise. shot stops the clock (or is under 2 seconds to qualify). No race back to the low-ready.

    I went to the "up" command because I heard an LE instructor once say that they quit using the "fire" command since sometimes you engage but don't want your reaction to be to fire every time you present. I saw the logic in that so I changed from "fire" to "up". Think before you shoot.

    Some (many) students will on the ready command present to the target and I have to stop and tell them to wait for the UP command...unless they plan on walking around pointing their gun at everyone. Remember, low-ready is our safe way to emulate being holstered.

    As for your experience, which you know I respect, if there is no formal "up" command, what is the command they use to engage the target? I have used a shot timer before but it's clumsy since we're always changing the par times. Do your guys use a whistle or airhorn or buzzer or different word? At the CHL instructor qualifiers, we were the first class to shoot at the new facility. Nice place. They had pneumatic turning targets. The RO would call out ready, and when the targets turned, that was your engagement. They'd set them for 2 seconds and they'd turn away. I'm not quite that fancy.

    Finally, as for "properly run tests", I assume I'm doing it according to Hoyle. My classroom instruction is excellent (as I've been told by people who audited mine with their friend/wife and took it elsewhere). Some instructors literally teach the test or even read the test to you, which is specifically prohibited by the rules and they could lose their instructor creds for doing so. One lady said "I don't think I learned a third of this when I took my class."

    As for instructors not following procedure, I'm sure many don't. When I took my initial CHL test, the guy next to me shot the first 5 on his neighbors target (yes, from 3 yards!). The RO corrected him. His next 5 were also on the neighbors target. RO corrected him again. He was actually a good shot but the 80 year old guy didn't realize which target was which (and he was in lane 2; I was in lane 1; he was shooting target 3). He still passed. And the last 40 rounds weren't all in the 8 so I'm not sure it was legit, although he was a good shot once he got straight.

    Here's one for you, though. When I requaled for instructor, my instructor watched me shoot about 10 shots at 3 yards. He said "just go back to 15" (since they were basically on on the actual X). At 15 they were all in the 10 ring and he said "whatever" and passed me. He's seen me shoot before (he owns the range). Then I went to shoot revolver. I used a GP100, 6", 38spl. I was shooting single action the whole time. Everything in the X. After about 10 shots he caught on to what I was doing. Started hammer down but would cock the gun to single and break the shot all within time. He said, "You can't do that. You have to shoot double action." I said, "That's not in the rules." He retorted, "I don't let people shoot single action because that's not realistic. You're not going to do that in real life." His range. His course of fire. His rules. We both laughed, though. Not LTC rules, but his rules. So I finished the course of fire double action and shot mostly Xs and a few 10s. He gave me the go to hell look.

    Point is, though, that I think the rule or procedure *does* say "safety on, hammer down." as if you were drawing it from a holster. I started my revolver hammer down so he was technically wrong in his requirement but whatever. I thought he was going to make me draw from concealment for being a smartass.
     

    benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
    Staff member
    Lifetime Member
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
    23,933
    96
    Spring
    My confusion was born from the idea that "up" could be substituted for "fire". I thought you were talking about an intermediate command, in between the command to load and the command to fire. While I have heard that intermediate command given (see below), I've never seen the word "up" used for it. So I misunderstood several things about the way you run your line, things you've now made clear. With that said -
    qualifying with DPS for the instructor portion
    Since I'm not an LTC instructor, I'm specifically wondering whether the folks taking the shooting test to earn instructor credentials do it differently from the way the test is supposed to be administered in regular classes.
    what is the command they use to engage the target?
    In the second CHL class I shot, a renewal, the instructor used "Hit it!" The instructor delighted in issuing a command of "Fire!" or "Shoot!" and then excoriating anyone who actually fired a shot. He had instructed us that the only command to fire was "Hit it!" and if we didn't follow his dictates, he made fun of us.

    He looked really confused when I handed him 5 unfired cartridges at the end of the shooting test. "Those are the times you said 'Fire!' instead of 'Hit it!' You never had us make up those shots so I only fired 45 rounds, per my perfect adherence to your line commands." Then I walked away. I think he thought I was a complete ass.

    In the most recent class I have personal experience with the instructor just asked everyone to load as many cartridges as possible so there would be as few delays as possible during the course of shooting. If you were in that class and had a 50-round drum, he would have been delighted. Between strings of fire, he'd just announce how many shots were coming up, pause a bit while everyone loaded and aimed in, then he'd yell "Fire!" At one point, he actually told people during that pause before the command to fire that they needed to be aiming at the target to get ready to shoot.

    Of course, that was the same instructor who answered questions about the written test during the test and told the students to talk amongst themselves if they didn't know any answers. And his PowerPoint looked to be at least 10 or 15 years out of date. And I could go on.

    Anyway, the basics of the classes I've seen have usually been an announcement of what the next string will be, a pause, and "Fire!" In some classes, the announcement of what the next string will be serves as the command to load. More commonly, there will be an intervening "Load!" Sometimes there will be an intervening "Everybody ready?" or just "Ready!" Most of the instructors I've observed aren't anywhere near perfectly consistent with their language from one string of fire to the next.

    For someone accustomed to various shooting sports that use very rigid, very precise, perfectly repetitive line commands dictated in exhaustive detail in the written rules, the lackadaisical way at least some LTC instructors call the line has always struck me as weird.

    So do you understand why I was wondering if there's a precise, by-the-book way to call the line for LTC classes?

    I had always assumed that the precise language would be dictated by the rules imposed by the state on instructors. Clearly, though, that's not the case since you state:
    I saw the logic in that so I changed from "fire" to "up".
    ...which means you have the authority to change the language you use on the line.

    I think that's weird. It means that if you take the same course from different instructors, you'll be administered different shooting tests. The basics may be the same but the details aren't. I can't come up with a good reason for the state to allow inconsistent testing procedures. To do so calls the validity of the whole testing program into question.

    Maybe that's just me and there's something obvious I'm overlooking, though. If there is, I wish someone would clue me in.
    His range. His course of fire. His rules.
    Not to my mind. It's not his course of fire or his rules. Both are theoretically set by the state and he's administering the test on behalf of the state. Why should he be able to make up rules like that?

    If I knew I were going to have to shoot for an instructor like that, I'd sure as bloody hell show up with my single action K-frame S&W M-14. In fact, I wonder if anyone has ever shot the instructor qualifier for the state using a single action revolver?
     

    Frank59

    Wheel Gunner
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2018
    1,897
    96
    San Angelo
    He looked really confused when I handed him 5 unfired cartridges at the end of the shooting test. "Those are the times you said 'Fire!' instead of 'Hit it!' You never had us make up those shots so I only fired 45 rounds, per my perfect adherence to your line commands." Then I walked away. I think he thought I was a complete ass.
    LMAO!!
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    So much to be said.

    The Texas Government Code (laws) nor the Texas Administrative Code (rules set out by law) dictate the commands used. Saying up, fire, front, blowing a whistle, etc, is all instructor discretion.

    Neither code dictates that the course of fire start from low ready.

    The Admin code dictates the course of fire and how many rounds are loaded per magazine/cylinder. It is flexible for firearms that cannot accommodate 6 rounds.

    An instructor who plays "Simon says" on the range is an egomaniacal douche.

    DPS has told us that we can run our range as we see fit in regards to safety and who we allow to shoot.

    I have been an LTC instructor since 2003 and have seen many changes.

    I am happy to answer any specific questions.
     

    Frank59

    Wheel Gunner
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2018
    1,897
    96
    San Angelo
    I am happy to answer any specific questions.
    I have my LTC and I'm fixing to take the NRA basic shooting class as a prerequisite to the NRA instructors class. From there I'm hoping to become eligible to attend the DPS instructors class. I am a decent shooter with both semi auto and revolver. There is room for improving on my proficiency. I attended a 500 hour regional police academy in Corpus Christi in 1985. A lot of things (Laws)have changed since then but I have a basic understanding of the penal codes most specifically how they apply to deadly force and the use of deadly force. I would be very interested in hearing what advice you have for someone beginning the process of becoming an instructor like myself.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    I was in the CCPD academy in 83. I can tell you that the codes have changed considerably. I would review the current chapter 9 https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#A

    And PC chapter 46. Pay close attention to definitions.

    You need to be able to qualify at 90% with both the revolver and semi-auto to qualify as an instructor. DPS will train you on administrative items and they will cover the law. From attending the basic instructor school in 2003 and several renewal schools since, how the information is presented and with what kind of twist is highly dependent on the DPS instructor. I try to know the law myself and present it without bias, even if I don't agree with or like that specific law/rule.

    Finally, teach to the law, not your opinions or what you read or hear. Don't tell war stories unless directly relevant to your topic. I tell a personal story where I used the conflict de-escalation techniques we teach to diffuse a situation that was going south quickly. I keep it short and on point, though.
     

    Frank59

    Wheel Gunner
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2018
    1,897
    96
    San Angelo
    I was in the CCPD academy in 83. I can tell you that the codes have changed considerably. I would review the current chapter 9 https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#A

    And PC chapter 46. Pay close attention to definitions.

    You need to be able to qualify at 90% with both the revolver and semi-auto to qualify as an instructor. DPS will train you on administrative items and they will cover the law. From attending the basic instructor school in 2003 and several renewal schools since, how the information is presented and with what kind of twist is highly dependent on the DPS instructor. I try to know the law myself and present it without bias, even if I don't agree with or like that specific law/rule.

    Finally, teach to the law, not your opinions or what you read or hear. Don't tell war stories unless directly relevant to your topic. I tell a personal story where I used the conflict de-escalation techniques we teach to diffuse a situation that was going south quickly. I keep it short and on point, though.
    Good stuff TI!! Thanks. Randy Walker was one on the instructors at the Del Mar college Police Academy in 85.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    Good stuff TI!! Thanks. Randy Walker was one on the instructors at the Del Mar college Police Academy in 85.

    Holy Crap, I haven't heard that name in a couple of decades. I still have buddies on the PD there. I was in CC back the weekend of Aug 24th and spent so good time with a great friend who just transferred to Recruiting. He is retired on duty now. ;)
     

    Frank59

    Wheel Gunner
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 14, 2018
    1,897
    96
    San Angelo
    Holy Crap, I haven't heard that name in a couple of decades. I still have buddies on the PD there. I was in CC back the weekend of Aug 24th and spent so good time with a great friend who just transferred to Recruiting. He is retired on duty now. ;)
    Randy Walker was instructing our class the day Joe Bock was shot and killed. That would have been 1987. Not 85 like I first said. Hal Green was my uncle. He was on the CCPD bomb squad for years. Thanks for responding TI!!
     

    benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
    Staff member
    Lifetime Member
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
    23,933
    96
    Spring
    An instructor who plays "Simon says" on the range is an egomaniacal douche.
    I'll have more later. For now, though, I wanted to single this out to say thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks so. I really hated that class.
     

    benenglish

    Just Another Boomer
    Staff member
    Lifetime Member
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Nov 22, 2011
    23,933
    96
    Spring
    I'm fixing to take the NRA basic shooting class as a prerequisite to the NRA instructors class
    When I got my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert, completing Basic Pistol was not a prerequisite. The instructor didn't like it and stated that he'd prefer everyone take Basic Pistol before they took Basic Pistol Instructor. However, there were several of us in the class in the same situation and he certainly didn't refuse our money.

    Have things changed?

    As an aside, I was under the impression that something similar was true of LTC instructors, i.e. you don't have to have an LTC to become an instructor. You can go to the instructor class and that will serve as both your LTC class and your instructor class, simultaneously. Of course, that would be really jumping off into the deep end for a guy like me with no criminal LE background but I suppose some folks have done it.

    TXI - Is my impression presented in the previous paragraph correct?
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    When I got my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert, completing Basic Pistol was not a prerequisite. The instructor didn't like it and stated that he'd prefer everyone take Basic Pistol before they took Basic Pistol Instructor. However, there were several of us in the class in the same situation and he certainly didn't refuse our money.

    Have things changed?

    As an aside, I was under the impression that something similar was true of LTC instructors, i.e. you don't have to have an LTC to become an instructor. You can go to the instructor class and that will serve as both your LTC class and your instructor class, simultaneously. Of course, that would be really jumping off into the deep end for a guy like me with no criminal LE background but I suppose some folks have done it.

    TXI - Is my impression presented in the previous paragraph correct?



    Texas Administrative Code

    Next Rule>>
    TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
    PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
    CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
    SUBCHAPTER C QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTOR LICENSE
    RULE §6.38 No Authority To Carry
    Certification as an instructor does not authorize a person to carry a handgun.

    However, an instructor can apply for a LTC based on his instructor class.





    And the Government code requires this of instructors;

    Sec. 411.190. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS AND APPROVED ONLINE COURSE PROVIDERS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

    (1) is certified by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement or under Chapter 1702, Occupations Code, to instruct others in the use of handguns;

    (2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

    (3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.
     
    Top Bottom