DAO vs SAO in semi autos. Which do you prefer and why?

Younggun · May 21, 2019

oldag said:
Every discharge of any type is due to human interaction.

Just some designs are more prone to human error than others.

This isn’t true. There are cases of mechanical failure, though rare.

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robertc1024 · May 21, 2019

Or cook offs.

oldag · May 21, 2019

A gun laying untouched on the table will not fire.

Cook off's? Now we are going far afield and obviously outside of this discussion. We could also talk about a meteorite striking a gun and setting off a round.

GoPappy · May 21, 2019

zackmars said:
A PPQ is a fully cocked striker. Essentially SA. Its honestly a BIT too light for my tastes.

Glocks are partially cocked, about 60%. Gock at one point described their trigger as a 1.5 action, or something similar.

I sold my PPQ because the trigger pull was just too light. I don't compete and the stock PPQ trigger was just too touchy for my tastes.

zackmars · May 21, 2019

Guns have margins of safety, yes a gun lying on a table unloaded will never fire, we all know that, and have known that since someone had the bright idea to stick black powder and a lump of lead in a tube.

But we also know that you don't carry around an unloaded gun in a foam lined box. You carry it with a round in the chamber, in a holster strapped to your hip, ready to be used, hence all the internal safety mechanisms modern guns have, or should have.

So when some guy knocks you down, your gun doesn't decide to send a round into whichever one of your body parts happens to be in the way. It's so when you are holding the gun and drop it, it doesn't drop you.

If a gun lacks these safety features, that is not the fault of the end user. That is the fault of the manufacturer.

A gun should only fire when you pull the trigger.

oldag · May 21, 2019

zackmars said:
Guns have margins of safety, yes a gun lying on a table unloaded will never fire, we all know that, and have known that since someone had the bright idea to stick black powder and a lump of lead in a tube.

But we also know that you don't carry around an unloaded gun in a foam lined box. You carry it with a round in the chamber, in a holster strapped to your hip, ready to be used, hence all the internal safety mechanisms modern guns have, or should have.

So when some guy knocks you down, your gun doesn't decide to send a round into whichever one of your body parts happens to be in the way. It's so when you are holding the gun and drop it, it doesn't drop you.

If a gun lacks these safety features, that is not the fault of the end user. That is the fault of the manufacturer.

A gun should only fire when you pull the trigger.

Totally missing the point here.

Some pistols (glocks as one example, but not the only, I was just winding up the glock fanboys) are prone to NDA due to the lack of a manual safety. More than a few instances have been reported of NDA's upon reholstering the pistol when some object (key on belt clipped key chain, etc.) gets caught inside the trigger guard. Bang. A person did not pull the trigger. Yet the gun went off.

Human interaction did cause the gun to fire, of course (i.e., the act of reholstering).

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Younggun · May 21, 2019

oldag said:
Totally missing the point here.

Some pistols (glocks as one example, but not the only, I was just winding up the glock fanboys) are prone to NDA due to the lack of a manual safety. More than a few instances have been reported of NDA's upon reholstering the pistol when some object (key on belt clipped key chain, etc.) gets caught inside the trigger guard. Bang. A person did not pull the trigger. Yet the gun went off.

Human interaction did cause the gun to fire, of course (i.e., the act of reholstering).

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

You said “every discharge of any type is due to human interaction”, implying negligence.

Then you move the goal post to “a gun sitting on a table”.

You made an in accurate claim (in the context of the discussion) and now are trying to justify it. There is such think as mechanical failure and it is the cause of a small number of accidental discharges. Though the vast majority of unintentional discharges are due to negligence.

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Maverick44 · May 21, 2019

Younggun said:
You said “every discharge of any type is due to human interaction”, implying negligence.

Then you move the goal post to “a gun sitting on a table”.

You made an in accurate claim (in the context of the discussion) and now are trying to justify it. There is such think as mechanical failure and it is the cause of a small number of accidental discharges. Though the vast majority of unintentional discharges are due to negligence.

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I've had one of those rare mechanical failures, and they scare the everloving crap out of you. It was an Egyptian Hakim, and basically what happened was the trigger failed to reset. The action wouldn't open either, it was locked up tight. Not exactly a fun situation to be in. I knew the gun was loaded, but it couldn't be unloaded. I couldn't just shoot either because the trigger wasn't working. Luckily I was on my own range with nobody else around. I just kept the thing pointed downrange and started fiddling with it to try and get it to do something (obviously not going to stick it in my truck and drive 2 hours to a gunsmith). I jiggled the trigger a few times and instead of resetting, the damn thing went off. Haven't touched it since as I don't know WHY it did that.

zackmars · May 21, 2019

oldag said:
Totally missing the point here.

Some pistols (glocks as one example, but not the only, I was just winding up the glock fanboys) are prone to NDA due to the lack of a manual safety. More than a few instances have been reported of NDA's upon reholstering the pistol when some object (key on belt clipped key chain, etc.) gets caught inside the trigger guard. Bang. A person did not pull the trigger. Yet the gun went off.

Human interaction did cause the gun to fire, of course (i.e., the act of reholstering).

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Yet plenty of people have also popped themselves with 1911's, DA/SA's, etc.

How many reports of ND's from the military with M9's? I know of several.

Glocks have all the internal and external safeties they need, the rest is left to the shooter and their holster choice.

If you are one of those people who carries a gun in a uncle mikes and tries to slam the gun back in the holster as fast as possible, it doesn't matter what gun you are running around with, you are more likey to pop yourself compared to a guy who looks at his holster, and doesn't slam it home.

ND'ing while holstering is far from tje only time guns have gone off, need i post the videos of sigs going off from drops, or tauruses firing from being shaken, or FNS's going bang when they go into battery?

Keep repeating this, "The holster is a safety, the holster is a safety". Even then, guns can, amd have gone off despite no failire of the end user

Maverick44 · May 21, 2019

Younggun · May 21, 2019

His dad was negligent with his discharges.

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Dancing Heretik · May 22, 2019

The main reason I prefer SA/DA is that it gives me a much better chance of being able to pull the trigger. I have weak hands.

ALL of my guns are SA/DA.

However, being SA/DA is still no guarantee that I can pull the trigger. Last week I saw a used Savage 1907 that I wanted. I went to take a look at it. It was beautiful!

I wasn't surprised when I couldn't pull the trigger in DA. But, to my surprise, I also couldn't use it in SA. I couldn't rack the slide, not even after pulling back the hammer. Just couldn't do it.

oldag · May 22, 2019

zackmars said:
Yet plenty of people have also popped themselves with 1911's, DA/SA's, etc.

How many reports of ND's from the military with M9's? I know of several.

Glocks have all the internal and external safeties they need, the rest is left to the shooter and their holster choice.

If you are one of those people who carries a gun in a uncle mikes and tries to slam the gun back in the holster as fast as possible, it doesn't matter what gun you are running around with, you are more likey to pop yourself compared to a guy who looks at his holster, and doesn't slam it home.

ND'ing while holstering is far from tje only time guns have gone off, need i post the videos of sigs going off from drops, or tauruses firing from being shaken, or FNS's going bang when they go into battery?

Keep repeating this, "The holster is a safety, the holster is a safety". Even then, guns can, amd have gone off despite no failire of the end user

Most of the glock NDA's I have read about have been LEO's. Guess they were using Uncle Mike's??

As far as drops, shaking, etc. - those all involve human interaction.

zackmars · May 22, 2019

whoops, dupe post

zackmars · May 22, 2019

oldag said:
Most of the glock NDA's I have read about have been LEO's. Guess they were using Uncle Mike's??

As far as drops, shaking, etc. - those all involve human interaction.

Most cops shoot maybe a hundred rounds a year, and i could go on and on about the firearms faux pas I've seen

And yeah, I've seen several cops using uncle mikes

Just because a gun is part of the job, doesn't mean they have their shit squared away and know everything, or even anything, about firearms

In negligent hands, everything is dangerous, no matter the safeties. However even in a true professionals hands, a dangerous firearm is still dangerous.

So let me get this straight. You think a pistol, absent any internal saftey mechanism is perfectly ok, since any issue is the result of human interaction, and thus not the fault of the firearm? Im sorry, but thats... Well tarded, to put it lightly

While you are technically correct (insofar as the ND's require human interaction to happen), you are ignoring the simple fact that we don't operate in a perfect swiss watch of the world. Shit happens, people slip, trip, and fall. People push other people, guns get dropped.

If gun A gets dropped (shook, tapped into battery, etc), and goes bang, but gun B gets dropped and doesn't fire, it means that gun B is a superior design, and that gun A is unsafe.

Just because a person is a necessary ingredient doesn't mean the fault is theirs

SQLGeek · May 22, 2019

There have been plenty of holes put into the floors and ceilings of police stations long before Glocks became a thing.

kenboyles72 · May 22, 2019

leo's are one of the most accident prone groups out there. dunno if it's the cocky attitude or the fact that they think they know everything.

toddnjoyce · May 22, 2019

Younggun said:
You said “every discharge of any type is due to human interaction”, implying negligence.

Technically, guns don’t load themselves. No opposable thumbs and all that.

txinvestigator · May 22, 2019

kenboyles72 said:
leo's are one of the most accident prone groups out there. dunno if it's the cocky attitude or the fact that they think they know everything.

You did a study?

Maverick44 · May 22, 2019

oldag said:
Most of the glock NDA's I have read about have been LEO's. Guess they were using Uncle Mike's??

As far as drops, shaking, etc. - those all involve human interaction.

Despite popular belief, police are not highly trained in the use of pistols. For many, carrying one is just part of the job, nothing more. They'll shoot maybe a few times a yards, or just when they are required to, but that's it. It's the same way as it is for a lot of gun owners. They own the gun and know how to use it, but they don't necessarily train with it on a regular basis (they should). It just sits in a drawer for years and years. There's also a lot of officers like you and me. They love to shoot, train, and learn about their gear. They take pride in their skills, and strive to improve their abilities with a gun. Those are the ones that are probably not going to have an ND. I do a lot of research before I buy something like a holster, as I'm sure many others do too. I want to make sure it's exactly what I want/need, and I don't mind paying a little bit extra for a high quality piece. Can you say that about the average officer or the average gun owner? Those cheap Uncle Mike holsters are everywhere for a reason after all. They sell.

Also, I'd like to point out that the reason that you see more stories about officer NDs than others is probably because that's far more newsworthy than Joe Schmo down the road doing something stupid with a gun and hurting himself.

As for dropping a gun, there is absolutely zero excuse for a modern gun to discharge due to being dropped. If you can make a gun discharge in ANY way other than either a cookoff (highly unlikely in anything other than a heavily used machine gun) or pulling the trigger, then that is a serious flaw in the design of that gun and responsibility of that discharge should fall back on the manufacturer.

DAO vs SAO in semi autos. Which do you prefer and why?

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