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  • jrbfishn

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    Smokeless powder doesn't explode when contained. It builds pressure when contained, hence the reason the reason that different types and brands of powders have different burn rates. Because they build pressure at different rates.
    And the very reason they use the plastic bottles they use these days. They are designed to rupture and release pressure long before they get to explosion pressure.

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    rotor

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    Smokeless powder doesn't explode when contained. It builds pressure when contained, hence the reason the reason that different types and brands of powders have different burn rates. Because they build pressure at different rates.
    Isn't that the definition of an explosion? How fast it builds pressure depends on the powder. Place smokeless powder in a pipe, seal and have a fuse, I think it will explode if ignited.
     

    Axxe55

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    And the very reason they use the plastic bottles they use these days. They are designed to rupture and release pressure long before they get to explosion pressure.

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    Isn't that the definition of an explosion? How fast it builds pressure depends on the powder. Place smokeless powder in a pipe, seal and have a fuse, I think it will explode if ignited.
    Very similar, but not the same. Smokeless powder, absent any containment will simply flash off and burn. Smokeless powder, in contained vessel, will build pressure, until the vessel can no longer contain the pressure, resulting in what appears to be an explosion.

    An explosive substance doesn't need a containment vessel in order to explode if triggered or ignited.

    So yes, you could use smokeless powder as an improvised explosive, and I'm sure it has been in the past, but it's still not an explosive.
     

    Dawico

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    House down the street from me in Houston exploded from a gas leak!
    Like JRB stated, a busted line during a fire wouldn't explode.

    A house full of gas getting ignited is a different situation.

    Though lacking much detail, the article said nothing about a gas explosion anyways.

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    cycleguy2300

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    Smokeless powders do not detonate, they go thru a process of deflagration. They do not explode.
    Smokeless powders absolutely explode, but they don't DETONATE like a high explosive.

    Smokeless powder is a low explosive and explodes through deflagration.

    High explosives explode through detonation.



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    Younggun

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    Even with a gas leak you need a specific mixture of air and gas for the kind of combustion that destroys a house. And with the low pressures that those lines use it would take a little bit to get there.


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    ronbwolf

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    True it did burn and I would say it burned pretty hot. Now say a guy had powder contained in say 40 mm ammo cans what do you think would happen? We all know ammo cooks off. Would a hot fire & small explosion off say black powder rupture & ignite a gas pipe? Ever seen a house explode from a natural gas leak?
    Yes, I have seen the results of a gas leak leading to a house exploding, actually 2 of them, I was a block away on one. That being said, I see no mention of gas in tge article. I also see no mentiin of any other explosive material, and despite several othe posts insistance, Smokeless powder will not EXPLODE. I posted a link to extensive tests, you would think at least someone would view the video. Even experienced firemen, like the Fire Chief in tge video, have preconceived, and wrong, notions about Smokeless powder.

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    benenglish

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    Smokeless powder is a flammable solid.
    QFT. People would do well to use that fact to frame their thinking.

    It burns fast and liberates a lot of gas as it does. Nothing more. (ETA: Many thanks to cycleguy2300 for his explanation in post #49 that defines terms in a more nuanced and accurate way.) That can be very dangerous but usually isn't. If all my powder went up at one time, the house would suffer badly and the fire it started would probably consume the building before the fire department got here.

    But it wouldn't blow the place apart.

    I've burned enough partial cans of powder as fireworks to entertain the neighborhood kids that I feel fairly confident saying all that.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Yes, I have seen the results of a gas leak leading to a house exploding, actually 2 of them, I was a block away on one. That being said, I see no mention of gas in tge article. I also see no mentiin of any other explosive material, and despite several othe posts insistance, Smokeless powder will not EXPLODE. I posted a link to extensive tests, you would think at least someone would view the video. Even experienced firemen, like the Fire Chief in tge video, have preconceived, and wrong, notions about Smokeless powder.

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    Explain then, what smokeless powder does when you pull the trigger and set off the primer if it doesn't explode. I would politely ask you to define "explode"

    Deflagregation is a VERY broad term which describes the reaction of "burning" that is propagated at a subsonic speed and has NOTHING to do with the amount of energy released, only the physical rate of the reaction. Smokeless powder most certainly can explode, and does explode, but small amounts in a weak confinement shouldn't explode.


    Wikipedia states the following:

    An explosion is a rapid expansion in volume associated with an extremely vigorous outward release of energy, usually with the generation of high temperatures and release of high-pressure gases. Supersonic explosions created by high explosives are known as detonations and travel through shock waves. Subsonic explosions are created by low explosives through a slower combustion process known as deflagration.



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    Axxe55

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    QFT. People would do well to use that fact to frame their thinking.

    It burns fast and liberates a lot of gas as it does. Nothing more. (ETA: Many thanks to cycleguy2300 for his explanation in post #49 that defines terms in a more nuanced and accurate way.) That can be very dangerous but usually isn't. If all my powder went up at one time, the house would suffer badly and the fire it started would probably consume the building before the fire department got here.

    But it wouldn't blow the place apart.

    I've burned enough partial cans of powder as fireworks to entertain the neighborhood kids that I feel fairly confident saying all that.

    Explain then, what smokeless powder does when you pull the trigger and set off the primer if it doesn't explode. I would politely ask you to define "explode"

    Deflagregation is a VERY broad term which describes the reaction of "burning" that is propagated at a subsonic speed and has NOTHING to do with the amount of energy released, only the physical rate of the reaction. Smokeless powder most certainly can explode, and does explode, but small amounts in a weak confinement shouldn't explode.


    Wikipedia states the following:

    An explosion is a rapid expansion in volume associated with an extremely vigorous outward release of energy, usually with the generation of high temperatures and release of high-pressure gases. Supersonic explosions created by high explosives are known as detonations and travel through shock waves. Subsonic explosions are created by low explosives through a slower combustion process known as deflagration.



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    The term, deflagration that @cycleguy2300 mentions is the one I was looking for to describe what smokeless powder does when ignited. Explosives work from detonation.

    If the house had caught fire and burned to the ground, that would be more like smokeless powder being ignited. The damage I saw in a few pictures, looks like an explosion. And yes, a gas leak inside the house could cause an explosion, but there is no mention of that in the article.

    No mention of it, but here's a possible scenario. If he had his reloading set up in the garage, possibly he might have had an oxy/acetelene torch, or propane bottles for his grill in the garage that ignited from the burning powder?
     

    ronbwolf

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    A more important term for this discussion, would be "brisance," :

    From Wikipedia:
    The value of brisance depends on the application. At one extreme, if an explosive is to be used for propulsion, e.g. by driving a piston or a bullet, brisance is likely to be undesirable, because the objective will be to move the load, not to shatter it or the engine or firearm, nor to produce a loud report. Such propulsive charges are designed to burn controllably, such as carburetted fuel/air mixes in vehicle piston engines, or nitrocellulose fibres or grains of controlled textures in firearm cartridges.

    Brisance is the shattering effect of detonation. The speed at which something ignites is where tge definitiins, by SAAMI, and DOT, get their seperatiin, and part of why Smokeless is defined as a PROPELLANT, and Black Powder, an EXPLOSIVE. Other factors enter into the definition, but we are beating a dead horse. As I said in my first post, if he was reloading with BP, explosion, with smokeless, I say BS. BTW, I have several pounds of BP, but it is stored away from my reloading room, as I don't reload with it. In fact I keep most of my reloading powder in a storage room on the oppksite side of my garage.

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    Axxe55

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    A more important term for this discussion, would be "brisance," :

    From Wikipedia:
    The value of brisance depends on the application. At one extreme, if an explosive is to be used for propulsion, e.g. by driving a piston or a bullet, brisance is likely to be undesirable, because the objective will be to move the load, not to shatter it or the engine or firearm, nor to produce a loud report. Such propulsive charges are designed to burn controllably, such as carburetted fuel/air mixes in vehicle piston engines, or nitrocellulose fibres or grains of controlled textures in firearm cartridges.

    Brisance is the shattering effect of detonation. The speed at which something ignites is where tge definitiins, by SAAMI, and DOT, get their seperatiin, and part of why Smokeless is defined as a PROPELLANT, and Black Powder, an EXPLOSIVE. Other factors enter into the definition, but we are beating a dead horse. As I said in my first post, if he was reloading with BP, explosion, with smokeless, I say BS. BTW, I have several pounds of BP, but it is stored away from my reloading room, as I don't reload with it. In fact I keep most of my reloading powder in a storage room on the oppksite side of my garage.

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    Dammit! You and them big words. I'm going to get the Webster's out again!
     

    Glenn B

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    Say he had a few thousand primers in the area, don't primers explode (they do contain a small amount of high explosives) and won't they go off in mass more or less spontaneously? Add 6 pounds of smokeless powder to that and whatever other things he may have had around, like possibly black powder, and I wonder if it all could go kaboom. Just wondering.

    One or two folks pointed out there was no mention of gas in the article. Well, there was no mention of an ignition source either but something ignited it. So, no mention of them does not necessarily mean gas or an ignition source definitely were not in the picture. The firefighter or whichever authority quoted the homeowner was restating what he told them. Then a reporter from the media quoted it - all of a sudden some of you seem to be taking the word of the media as gospel! My guess is there might be a bit more information that will be revealed after an follow-up investigation - if not by the fire department then by the insurance company. Then again, there may have been something else that was explosive in the area where he was reloading, my guess is the garage from the scant info given in the article about the garage door being blown across the street and from photos showing what certainly looks like the remains of a garage. That might also come out after an investigation and I would guess with some certainty that, if the house really is a total loss, the insurance company will do an investigation.

    As for someone mentioning watching a burn off of ammo where firefighters nearby were not injured - that was ammo already loaded into individual cartridges - was it not? That is very different than unloaded: smokeless powder, black powder or primers.
     

    Glenn B

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    If you put any credence in the FBI's Laboratory Services folks, then smokeless powder is indeed an explosive as well as a propellant.

    "The safest and most powerful low-order explosive is smokeless powder. These powders decompose at rates up to 1,000 meters per second and produce a propelling action that makes them suitable for use in ammunition. However, the slower burning rate of smokeless powder should not be underestimated. The explosive power of smokeless powder is extremely dangerous when confined to a small container. In addition, certain smokeless powders with a high-nitroglycerine concentration can be induced to detonate. On the other hand, high-order explosives do not need containment to demonstrate their explosive effects (Saferstein 1998). These materials detonate at rates from 1,000 to 8,500 meters per second, producing a shock wave with an outward rush of gases at supersonic speeds. This effect proves to be more destructive than the fragmented debris." (source)

    Very interesting piece, at least what I read of it in bits and pieces. There is a lot more to it than the above quotation.

    I would guess the ATF also has more on the subject.
     
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