Permitless carry ethics poll

[ZX9RCAM]

BTW, several options on your poll are incorrect. A 30.05 notice does not make it illegal to enter while armed if you're carrying your LTC. It only affects permitless carry.

His scenario states you have no LTC.

 

[Axxe55]

For the sake of discussion there also needs to be an understanding there is a difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing, and the consequences can be very different as well.

Is criminal trespassing the same as trespassing?


Criminal trespass involves entering or remaining in a place knowing one is there without a license or privilege. Trespass involves simply entering onto land without the consent of the landowner.

Also if a person is issued a "Criminal Trespass" violation or citation, that means that person can't enter under any circumstances for any reason for at least a year, and it can be renewed when that time expires.

How long does a criminal trespass last in Texas?


Criminal Trespass Warning Notices shall expire twelve months from the date of issuance unless in the last month prior to the expiration of the notice the property owner or their designate renews the warning by signing the renewal request at the police department. Each renewal is good for an additional twelve months

Whys is all this important? A lot of people are debating the legality of certain signage, and what exactly is legal as far as Texas state statutes. IMO, in a perfect world that may be true, but I'd argue even if the signage doesn't meet the standards of the statutes, if the property owner, business owner or their representatives want to pursue legal options and press charges, they can do so.It may not lead to an arrest, or even charges being filed, but it sure as hell could cause some legal headaches in defending and incur legal fees as well in securing a lawyer.

And just how serious is trespassing or criminal trespassing in Texas? Pretty serious and has some serious consequences. And since this pertains to guns and carrying under the new Constitutional Carry law that just went into effect his week, lets look at the possible consequences for the sake of discussion.

Consequences of a Trespassing Charge in Texas​

Depending on where you were, you could get charged with either a Class A, B, or C misdemeanor. Here are the different distinctions of each crime:

• Class A: In a habitation, shelter, superfund, or critical infrastructure facility, while carrying a weapon, or multiple trespass charges on the property of a higher institution of learning
• Class B: Most other trespass crimes
• Class C: Within 100 feet of a agricultural boundary or freshwater area

The majority of trespassing cases in Texas result in Class B misdemeanor charges. If you were trespassing while also carrying a weapon, then your charges will immediately get upgraded to a Class A misdemeanor. You could also face additional charges due to the weapon, too.

If you get charged with a Class B misdemeanor, then you could get sentenced to up to six months in jail. On top of that, you could be subject to fines up to $2,000. If your crime gets elevated to a Class A misdemeanor, then you could face up to a year in jail. You could also get hit with fines up to $4,000.

So my understanding, and I may be incorrect, the carrying of firearm, even though legal can, or could elevate the charge from trespassing to criminal trespassing. If that is the case and a person is convicted of such charges, then because of the sentence that can be imposed, under federal law, a person could very well become a prohibited person and lose their gun rights.

Question 21c on the Form 4473:

c. Have you ever been convicted in any court, including a military court, of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?

I like many others am just trying to come to some understanding of the new law, and how it applies as far as signage. I may be incorrect in some of my understandings of the current laws and the previous laws and how things have changed.

A lot of uncharted territory here.

 

[ScottDLS]

For the sake of discussion there also needs to be an understanding there is a difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing, and the consequences can be very different as well.

Is criminal trespassing the same as trespassing?


Criminal trespass involves entering or remaining in a place knowing one is there without a license or privilege. Trespass involves simply entering onto land without the consent of the landowner.

Also if a person is issued a "Criminal Trespass" violation or citation, that means that person can't enter under any circumstances for any reason for at least a year, and it can be renewed when that time expires.

How long does a criminal trespass last in Texas?


Criminal Trespass Warning Notices shall expire twelve months from the date of issuance unless in the last month prior to the expiration of the notice the property owner or their designate renews the warning by signing the renewal request at the police department. Each renewal is good for an additional twelve months

Whys is all this important? A lot of people are debating the legality of certain signage, and what exactly is legal as far as Texas state statutes. IMO, in a perfect world that may be true, but I'd argue even if the signage doesn't meet the standards of the statutes, if the property owner, business owner or their representatives want to pursue legal options and press charges, they can do so.It may not lead to an arrest, or even charges being filed, but it sure as hell could cause some legal headaches in defending and incur legal fees as well in securing a lawyer.

And just how serious is trespassing or criminal trespassing in Texas? Pretty serious and has some serious consequences. And since this pertains to guns and carrying under the new Constitutional Carry law that just went into effect his week, lets look at the possible consequences for the sake of discussion.

Consequences of a Trespassing Charge in Texas​

Depending on where you were, you could get charged with either a Class A, B, or C misdemeanor. Here are the different distinctions of each crime:

• Class A: In a habitation, shelter, superfund, or critical infrastructure facility, while carrying a weapon, or multiple trespass charges on the property of a higher institution of learning
• Class B: Most other trespass crimes
• Class C: Within 100 feet of a agricultural boundary or freshwater area

The majority of trespassing cases in Texas result in Class B misdemeanor charges. If you were trespassing while also carrying a weapon, then your charges will immediately get upgraded to a Class A misdemeanor. You could also face additional charges due to the weapon, too.

If you get charged with a Class B misdemeanor, then you could get sentenced to up to six months in jail. On top of that, you could be subject to fines up to $2,000. If your crime gets elevated to a Class A misdemeanor, then you could face up to a year in jail. You could also get hit with fines up to $4,000.

So my understanding, and I may be incorrect, the carrying of firearm, even though legal can, or could elevate the charge from trespassing to criminal trespassing. If that is the case and a person is convicted of such charges, then because of the sentence that can be imposed, under federal law, a person could very well become a prohibited person and lose their gun rights.

Question 21c on the Form 4473:

c. Have you ever been convicted in any court, including a military court, of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?

I like many others am just trying to come to some understanding of the new law, and how it applies as far as signage. I may be incorrect in some of my understandings of the current laws and the previous laws and how things have changed.

A lot of uncharted territory here.

I'm not sure where the above came from, maybe a prepaid legal service or some Texas defense attorney's advertisement. Chapter 30 of the Texas Penal Code contains all the crimes related to Burglary and Trespass. Burglary is not Trespass, it's a separate crime, so there are three relevant sections for trespass, Section 30.05, 30.06, and 30.07. Other than the title of the section 30.05, nothing in the Code makes a distinction between "criminal trespass" or "trespass". Each section defines an offense and the elements of that offense, which must be proven by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt (to a jury if you choose).

Carrying a gun WHILE trespassing, can raise the offense to a class A misdemeanor.

But carrying a gun in itself is not trespassing. The offense of trespassing is clearly defined in each section. Let's start with 30.05:

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

It then goes on to define notice...signs saying no trespassing, purple paint marks, fencing obviously designed to keep people out, etc. HB 1927 adds a specific format for a sign to notify people that they may not enter the property while carrying a firearm. Nowhere does it say that a cartoon frowny face and a silhouette of a squirt gun means "entry to this property is prohibited.

30.06 and 30.07 create a specific offense for carrying a handgun on property of another UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF (LTC) when they have indicated through very specific signage or oral notification, that you may not.

30.05 has exceptions, defenses to prosecution, and non-applicability depending on numerous circumstances (being a cop, LTC, utility worker, firefighter, emergencies, easements, etc.)

It's not really hard to understand. If a location normally open to the public wants to prohibit your entry, they can tell you not to come in, they can post a very specific sign for LTC or they can tell you to leave after you've already come in. In all sections of TXPC Chapter 30, if the reason for you being excluded or "trespassed" is that you are carrying a firearm, the offense is at most a Class C misdemeanor $200, no jail, ticket, UNLESS you are specifically told orally, after entering, to leave and fail to do so.

I don't know where the rest of the urban lore above comes from...perhaps trial cases for 30.05, but so far as has been reported by DPS no LTC has ever been convicted under 30.05/6/7.

 

[1911'S 4 Me]

 

[ScottDLS]

So what? Axxe went to the trouble to write up a lot of concerns about trespass being applied to LTC and permitless carry and I wrote a soliloquy on why I'm not concerned. Isn't that what TGT is for? Or is it for big chested bikini babes pics?

 

[Axxe55]

I'm not sure where the above came from, maybe a prepaid legal service or some Texas defense attorney's advertisement. Chapter 30 of the Texas Penal Code contains all the crimes related to Burglary and Trespass. Burglary is not Trespass, it's a separate crime, so there are three relevant sections for trespass, Section 30.05, 30.06, and 30.07. Other than the title of the section 30.05, nothing in the Code makes a distinction between "criminal trespass" or "trespass". Each section defines an offense and the elements of that offense, which must be proven by the prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt (to a jury if you choose).

Carrying a gun WHILE trespassing, can raise the offense to a class A misdemeanor.

But carrying a gun in itself is not trespassing. The offense of trespassing is clearly defined in each section. Let's start with 30.05:



It then goes on to define notice...signs saying no trespassing, purple paint marks, fencing obviously designed to keep people out, etc. HB 1927 adds a specific format for a sign to notify people that they may not enter the property while carrying a firearm. Nowhere does it say that a cartoon frowny face and a silhouette of a squirt gun means "entry to this property is prohibited.

30.06 and 30.07 create a specific offense for carrying a handgun on property of another UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF (LTC) when they have indicated through very specific signage or oral notification, that you may not.

30.05 has exceptions, defenses to prosecution, and non-applicability depending on numerous circumstances (being a cop, LTC, utility worker, firefighter, emergencies, easements, etc.)

It's not really hard to understand. If a location normally open to the public wants to prohibit your entry, they can tell you not to come in, they can post a very specific sign for LTC or they can tell you to leave after you've already come in. In all sections of TXPC Chapter 30, if the reason for you being excluded or "trespassed" is that you are carrying a firearm, the offense is at most a Class C misdemeanor $200, no jail, ticket, UNLESS you are specifically told orally, after entering, to leave and fail to do so.

I don't know where the rest of the urban lore above comes from...perhaps trial cases for 30.05, but so far as has been reported by DPS no LTC has ever been convicted under 30.05/6/7.

I'm not disputing the validity of what you are stating, just that the more I read, the more confusing it becomes.

Most of that comes from law firms I was reading from on the statutes as they applied to Texas. Just trying to gain some simplified understanding of what the laws mean.

 

[ScottDLS]

I'm not disputing the validity of what you are stating, just that the more I read, the more confusing it becomes.

Most of that comes from law firms I was reading from on the statutes as they applied to Texas. Just trying to gain some simplified understanding of what the laws mean.

The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.

 

[TipBledsoe]

Y was too close to T on his keyboard.

Just like e was too close to d on yours.

Sorry, couldn't resist....

AAAAaaaaHaHahaha!
That was way too funny!!!!

 

[Axxe55]

The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.

My main point is, if I'm confused, I'm sure others are as well. I'm not by any stretch a legal scholar, but not a complete dumbass either!

I appreciate your insight into this though.

 

[TipBledsoe]

... a soliloquy on why I'm not concerned. Isn't that what TGT is for? Or is it for big chested bikini babes pics?

Doesn't have to be "Or" ... For me it is definitely "AND."

 

[Charlie]

I don't worry about carrying. I always conceal when I carry ('have the permit). I take care of my business and leave. I don't open carry except on my property when I mow so as to dispatch snakes, rodents, etc.

 

[Grey Pilgrim]

I don't know what the problem some people have with this thread.
It seems like a valid question and possibly some of you sound a little tin-foil-hat paranoid jumping on the OP.

The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?

I am confused about what such an article would say. Headline: "Recent poll indicates half of gun owners would rather go somewhere their guns are welcome"?

 

[Axxe55]

The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?

I am confused about what such an article would say. Headline: "Recent poll indicates half of gun owners would rather go somewhere their guns are welcome"?

This forum? That I have no idea of, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had. Many times in the past on other gun forums it has happened. Law-abiding gun owners get wary or new people coming in and asking very similar questions.

If I had posted the same questions, and poll, very few people would have been as nervous or wary of the reasoning behind them.(I hope!)

Too many lies and too many things said that are taken out of context, and that we gun owners have been screwed over at every turn and opportunity, only to be labeled as some of the vilest creatures that walk the earth, simply because we will exercise our God-given rights to self protection.

Meh? I'm too old and onery to give a shit about what the anti-gun liberals have to say or what the take out of context anymore. As long as I'm exercising my rights within the legalities of the law, screw 'em!

 

[Axxe55]

The concern for anti-gun "hit pieces" has been repeated enough times it makes me think that has happened before. Has it?

I am confused about what such an article would say. Headline: "Recent poll indicates half of gun owners would rather go somewhere their guns are welcome"?

This forum? That I have no idea of, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had. Many times in the past on other gun forums it has happened. Law-abiding gun owners get wary or new people coming in and asking very similar questions.

If I had posted the same questions, and poll, very few people would have been as nervous or wary of the reasoning behind them.(I hope!)

Too many lies and too many things said that are taken out of context, and that we gun owners have been screwed over at every turn and opportunity, only to be labeled as some of the vilest creatures that walk the earth, simply because we will exercise our God-given rights to self protection.

Meh? I'm too old and onery to give a shit about what the anti-gun liberals have to say or what the take out of context anymore. As long as I'm exercising my rights within the legalities of the law, screw 'em!

 

[Grey Pilgrim]

For the sake of discussion there also needs to be an understanding there is a difference between trespassing and criminal trespassing, and the consequences can be very different as well.

...

A lot of uncharted territory here.

I share your concern. Any time there is confusion or lack of clarity in the law, it will not be used to benefit you or me.

Yes it drops to C misdemeanor if the "sole basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a firearm or other weapon was forbidden," which, if it ends up in court, I believe will be the defendant's responsibility to prove. Is it possible that's as easy to contradict as saying there were two bases on which entry was forbidden, one of which wasn't firearm-related?

This is important because like Axxe said, it reverts to a class A misdemeanor with serious consequences, if that condition can't be proven in court.

But the distinction between trespass and criminal trespass is where we get more wiggle room. Because the offense only exists if the trespasser had notice that entry was forbidden and entered anyway, or received notice and failed to depart. That is an element the prosecution would have to prove. And that is my understanding of why a "criminal trespass notice" exists. I am familiar with them because my wife works at a hotel and has had to issue such a notice before as the manager on duty. Without a written notice signed by the trespasser, any claim that they were "given notice" is he said/she said. But the notice is now on file with the police and would be admissible as evidence they had received notice. Without that notice, the police can't arrest you unless they witness the offense. But with the notice on file, they can arrest the person if they return, even if they leave again and the police catch up to them later.

So hence the distinction between trespassing per the dictionary definition vs criminal trespassing which is an offense defined by Chapter 30. If you tell someone "leave and don't come back" they would be trespassing if they did come back. But it's not enforceable unless you have something they could be prosecuted with--the criminal trespass notice.

The way I try to make sense of it is: Read the statute and try to see what I could be convicted of for doing what I'm doing. I also measure the risk of anyone actually discovering what I'm doing and making an issue of it. Once 30.06/7 were reduced to Class C tickets, I stopped caring as much. If I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is not illegal and the penalty isn't that high if I were (wrongly) convicted, then I just don't give it much thought. Except in the theoretical discussion format of TGT.

I appreciate the practical aspect of this. Except for my concern about it reverting to a Class A misdemeanor on a technicality, I agree with you. Not that I've ever personally driven above the posted speed limit, but I have heard that speeding tickets can cost well over $200. Even if you do the state deferred adjudication it costs close to $200. So I'm not that worried about it.

I also appreciate the comments from a couple of folks that no one has ever been convicted under 30.06/07. That puts some perspective on the applicability of this discussion to real life.

 

[avvidclif]

I noted that Axxe post the penalties for Class A, B, and C Misdemeanors. Also the Federal Statute regarding losing your gun rights. A little closer shows the Feds saying "can be sentenced to over a year". The Penalty for Class A is "up to a year" Big difference there. Now if you could be sentenced to a year AND a day you would be in trouble.

A fine line but it is well defined.

 

[Axxe55]

I noted that Axxe post the penalties for Class A, B, and C Misdemeanors. Also the Federal Statute regarding losing your gun rights. A little closer shows the Feds saying "can be sentenced to over a year". The Penalty for Class A is "up to a year" Big difference there. Now if you could be sentenced to a year AND a day you would be in trouble.

A fine line but it is well defined.

That's an important point and glad you caught that, because it slipped past me.

 

[oldag]

What a thread.

 

[Sam Colt]

When you see the car crash coming, but you just can't stop yourself:

 

[ScottDLS]

I share your concern. Any time there is confusion or lack of clarity in the law, it will not be used to benefit you or me.

Yes it drops to C misdemeanor if the "sole basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a firearm or other weapon was forbidden," which, if it ends up in court, I believe will be the defendant's responsibility to prove. Is it possible that's as easy to contradict as saying there were two bases on which entry was forbidden, one of which wasn't firearm-related?

This is important because like Axxe said, it reverts to a class A misdemeanor with serious consequences, if that condition can't be proven in court.

But the distinction between trespass and criminal trespass is where we get more wiggle room. Because the offense only exists if the trespasser had notice that entry was forbidden and entered anyway, or received notice and failed to depart. That is an element the prosecution would have to prove. And that is my understanding of why a "criminal trespass notice" exists. I am familiar with them because my wife works at a hotel and has had to issue such a notice before as the manager on duty. Without a written notice signed by the trespasser, any claim that they were "given notice" is he said/she said. But the notice is now on file with the police and would be admissible as evidence they had received notice. Without that notice, the police can't arrest you unless they witness the offense. But with the notice on file, they can arrest the person if they return, even if they leave again and the police catch up to them later.

So hence the distinction between trespassing per the dictionary definition vs criminal trespassing which is an offense defined by Chapter 30. If you tell someone "leave and don't come back" they would be trespassing if they did come back. But it's not enforceable unless you have something they could be prosecuted with--the criminal trespass notice.



I appreciate the practical aspect of this. Except for my concern about it reverting to a Class A misdemeanor on a technicality, I agree with you. Not that I've ever personally driven above the posted speed limit, but I have heard that speeding tickets can cost well over $200. Even if you do the state deferred adjudication it costs close to $200. So I'm not that worried about it.

I also appreciate the comments from a couple of folks that no one has ever been convicted under 30.06/07. That puts some perspective on the applicability of this discussion to real life.

I think too much is being read into this. You face prosecution and a fine/jail if you commit a crime, the state charges you with it, and then at trial proves beyond a reasonable doubt (to a jury) that you are guilty of it. The elements of the crime of trespass in Texas are laid out in 30.05. It's basically going onto someone's property without their consent, when they have made it clear they don't want people on their property OR after they have ALLOWED you on their property, they tell you to leave and you don't.

You walk past at crayon frowny face / gun silhouette sign into WalMart along with other shoppers when the store is clearly open for business. They did not make it clear your entry was forbidden. Later the manager approaches you and says leave...you leave. No trespass has been committed. No class C, no class A.

Let's say they had a 30.05 notice that met the specifications in HB1927 for keeping out firearms. You didn't notice it, or even ignored it and went in anyway. The manager comes and tell you to get out. You leave. Now he calls the cops and says he kicked you out because you were carrying a gun (presumably concealed, but somehow he saw it).

The cop comes and the manager wants him to charge you with trespass. He says lock him up on a class A because he was armed. OK, how were you trespassing? You walked into an open store, the manager told you to leave and you left.

Aha! There was a sign, that said you're trespassing if you come in with a gun. Well first store has to prove the sign was notice (aka you received notice). Also, the REASON that you were given notice (by sign) was for carrying, but you departed after the manager orally notified you to. So this is a Class C, period.

But it's not clear...the cops might not be up to speed...the DA might not like the new law... OK fine, then you can just be charged for anything that you didn't do, that isn't against the law, and get convicted and go to jail because....reasons!

All we can do is read the plain language of the law and follow it to the best of our understanding. Or knowingly not follow it and take the associated risk.