Questions about bullet types for autoloading pistols.

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  • d_holliday

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    A bullet in a vital area is deadly. Period. It does not matter what design that bullet is.
    I have several 9mm pistols and all shoot both jacketed and every HP I have put in them. Including 90grn HPs and 100grn FMJ intended for .380s.
    That being said, I have seen some get picky about what size bullet and what design bullet the will cycle reliably.
    The best one for the one you get? The one it shoots the most reliably and accurate that you are confident with. It does not matter what design the bullet is if you can not hit a vital spot when you need to. Period.
    Try telling combat vets that a FMJ is not deadly. And get prepared to be laughed at.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

    Remember a .45 ACP bullet has greater frontal area than a 9mm bullet so a 9mm bullet may need some help expanding in the body of a bad hombre to get decent stopping power. FMJ might be great as a man-stopper in 45, but what is its reputation in 9? Federal Premium HST looks promising for terminal ballistic performance but I would have to test it and other ammo out at the range for every gun I buy, borrow or rent and test at the range first. The gun with a given load has to be acceptably accurate and even reliable at feeding the fodder.

    This 9mm HST fodder is listed retail nearly $30 a box of 20 at Federal's website.

    A buck fifty a pop...ouch in the wallet!
    Makes for expensive testing and practice at the range.
    There was a time you could get 50 rounds of .45 ACP FMJ for next to nothing. I've owned three Colt Govt. Models over my lifetime. I need a compact pistol these days for concealed carry, however. It's got to be a "wondernine" of sorts with "wondernine" ammo.
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    zackmars

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    Remember a .45 ACP bullet has greater frontal area than a 9mm bullet so a 9mm bullet may need some help expanding in the body of a bad hombre to get decent stopping power. FMJ might be great as a man-stopper in 45, but what is its reputation in 9? Federal Premium HST looks promising for terminal ballistic performance but I would have to test it and other ammo out at the range for every gun I buy or rent and test at the range first. The gun with a given load has to be acceptably accurate and even reliable at feeding the fodder.

    This 9mm HST fodder is listed retail nearly $30 a box of 20 at Federal's website.

    A buck fifty a pop...ouch in the wallet!
    Makes for expensive testing and practice at the range.
    There was a time you could get 50 rounds of .45 ACP FMJ for next to nothing. I've owned three Colt Govt. Models over my lifetime. I need a compact pistol these days for concealed carry, however. It's got to be a "wondernine" of sorts with "wondernine" ammo.


    Stopping power is not a thing, and JHP ammo is almost always more accurate than ball ammo due to the quality companies will put into defensive ammo vs practice ammo, and also due to the way JHP bullets are made.

    In any case, unless your pistol is firing a rifle caliber, it will not simply "stop a man", unless you get a solid hit on a vital organ (even then that might not work) and its not like certain calibers cant destroy an organ.

    As for cost, look around online for 50 round boxes. Cheaper anyways. And you don't have to do exhaustive testing. A mag or two through a gun to check zero and function is fine
     

    zackmars

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    Sometimes, you use what you happen to have. Shot placement is much more important than the type of ammo used. Hits with "ball" ammo trump misses with high dollar self defense ammo any day of the week.

    I'll bet you wouldn't be as confident to say that if you were the one being shot at with 380 ball ammo.

    You do know you can train with ball, and carry JHP's, correct? Do the smart thing and train with cheap stuff, carry the good stuff.
     

    Byrd666

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    https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/owners-manuals/M&P_380_SHIELD_EZ_021520_3012265.pdf

    https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/si...MP9-SHIELD-EZ-031520-3013255-ownersmanual.pdf



    https://www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/owners-manuals

    Give a call to the local P.D. of your choice and find out what they carry.

    Years back, a local, at the time, Police Chief turned me towards Black Hills 124 grn JHP as a carry round. Been carrying that since.

    Most modern pistols will not balk at HP ammo. They can however, be finicky about it. Experiment with the pistol(s) of your choice and see what ammo, ball and hp, they/it like the best and go from there.
     
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    d_holliday

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    d_holliday,

    I was an Army Range Master for well over 15 years (my license says "indefinite" where an expiration date usually is.) & I wish I had a nickel for every round of HP ammo that has been fired on Army pistol ranges. - I suspect that your sergeant was "jerking your chain" OR that is a local policy.

    yours, satx
    USAMPR, Retired

    I don't think that particular army E7 I had at my unit at Fort Sill had much in-depth firearms knowledge, if I recall correctly he was in supply, quartermasters. He might have perceived the HP (ammunition type) as "especially dangerous" or maybe the Fort Sill range did i fact have policy against HP at that time. If there was a rule against HP at on-post pistol ranges, no rational person should readily and instinctively know that without having visited such a range. I think the "knucklehead" remark was disparaging anyway. That didn't matter to me anyway because I had no intention of firing private guns on base anyway. Hollow points were originally developed in name of public safety and police dept. liability anyway. Because ammunition has a special name or funny bullet design, it might be perceived as "especially menacing" by laymen for that reason. The anti-gun media used to call armor-piercing rounds "cop killer bullets" to enhance the "bad, wicked, satanic, demonic and evil" appeal. This same sergeant also jokingly called me "Dirty Harry" even though my large-frame/big-bore Smith was a .45 Colt and not a .44 Mag. As we all know, NCO's like to screw with the heads of young, dumb privates. This was my first active duty station following a short "gig" with a reserve unit. He just didn't like me for some reason: I once had to give him 50 pushups in the unit dayroom for something.
     
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    d_holliday

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    You do know you can train with ball, and carry JHP's, correct? Do the smart thing and train with cheap stuff, carry the good stuff.
    Yes, that makes sense. Use the cheap stuff for a lot of practice. I still have to fire the expensive stuff once in a while to make sure the gun still likes it. Function check and sight-in check. Maybe shoot a box of pricey carry stuff annually for a confidence test.

    Yes, you have to place the bullet in the right place on the bad man's body to even stop a man. The gun also has to be able to consistently launch the projectiles. A critical fast second or third follow-up shot might be needed in an emergency. If the bullet can't even get delivered from the gun to the bad guy, no go.

    With a deer rifle, too, I would test and sight-in the gun at the range with same ammo I plan to take afield for hunting. Make sure the gun can with your intended carry/hunting loads:

    -even discharge the rounds and do so repeatedly
    -place them where the gun looks downrange
    -group them consistently and acceptably tight
     
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    Axxe55

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    Yes, that makes sense. Use the cheap stuff for a lot of practice. I still have to fire the expensive stuff once in a while to make sure the gun still likes it. Function check and sight-in check. Maybe shoot a box of pricey carry stuff annually for a confidence test.

    Yes, you have to place the bullet in the right place on the bad man's body to even stop a man. The gun also has to be able to consistently launch the projectiles. A critical fast second or third follow-up shot might be needed in an emergency. If the bullet can't even get delivered from the gun to the bad guy, no go.

    I have one primary criteria for ammo that I might have to depend on to save my life, or others. Reliability. Everything else is pretty irrelevant if the ammo isn't reliable. The most advanced and super uber JHP ammo is pretty useless if it doesn't function in your firearm when you need it.
     

    oldag

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    JHP's function with zero problems in all my 1911's.

    Edit: and none were "tuned" to run JHP.
     
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    Axxe55

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    When some so-called expert gets on the internet spouting such nuggets of wisdom, that ball ammo only makes holes, and only JHP ammo is acceptable for self defense or carry purposes, well you might want to disregard their expertise.

    Many times in the past, I have heard this nonsense. And it seems to be alive and still going. I have challenged more than a few over the years to prove their opinions, but not one yet has stepped up.

    JHP is by far superior to any FMJ ammo without a doubt. I totally agree with that and never have said any different over the years. But in order for a pistol to be useful to it's owner, it has to function reliably. That's just a fact of life. And if the pistol only functions reliably with ball ammo, then ball ammo in that instance is far superior to any JHP that doesn't function 100% reliably.

    And accurate shot placement is another critical factor. Whatever ammo you have, whether it's ball or JHP is irrelevant if you can't hit the intended target. That too is fact of life.
     

    d_holliday

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    I have one primary criteria for ammo that I might have to depend on to save my life, or others. Reliability. Everything else is pretty irrelevant if the ammo isn't reliable. The most advanced and super uber JHP ammo is pretty useless if it doesn't function in your firearm when you need it.

    agreed, I've seen this in gun writing many a time again and again: reliability is KING in any defensive handgun, shotgun or rifle, not tack-driving accuracy...if the gun don't continue to go BANG! repeatedly, it might just scare the bad guy off by its appearance if you are lucky...I'm much more skeptical of auto pistols and their respective loads than of revolvers and their respective loads ... auto-loaders, even the latest and greatest ones, need to be tested periodically at the range and watched more closely ... that Colt or Smith .38 Special you might have inherited from grandpa with any name-brand loads could be left in the nightstand drawer and be counted on to go BANG! BANG! BANG! 50 years later
     

    Axxe55

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    agreed, I've seen this in gun writing many a time again and again: reliability is KING in any defensive handgun, shotgun or rifle, not tack-driving accuracy...if the gun don't continue to go BANG! repeatedly, it might just scare the bad guy off by its appearance if you are lucky...I'm much more skeptical of auto pistols and their respective loads than of revolvers and their respective loads ... auto-loaders, even the latest and greatest ones, need to be tested periodically at the range and watched more closely ... that Colt or Smith .38 Special you might have inherited from grandpa with any name-brand loads could be left in the nightstand drawer and be counted on to go BANG! BANG! BANG! 50 years later

    I'm going to be honest with you about pistols. In current times, it's really hard to get a semi-auto pistol that isn't reliable. Granted, ANY pistol I buy, for carry or self defense purposes is tested with a minimum number of rounds to make sure it's reliable. I don't just assume just because a particular brand or model has a stellar rating that the one I have will be reliable.My thoughts are, the time to discover problems or issues is at the range, not when you life could depend upon the pistol.

    Also regular range trips keeps you a better shooter. Shooting skills will degrade over time if you don't practice on regular basis. Keeps you sharp, and keeps you in tune with your equipment. If you have multiple firearms, that you use or carry, practice with all of them as well. Different types of gun have different operations.
     

    d_holliday

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    When some so-called expert gets on the internet spouting such nuggets of wisdom, that ball ammo only makes holes, and only JHP ammo is acceptable for self defense or carry purposes, well you might want to disregard their expertise.

    Many times in the past, I have heard this nonsense. And it seems to be alive and still going. I have challenged more than a few over the years to prove their opinions, but not one yet has stepped up.

    JHP is by far superior to any FMJ ammo without a doubt. I totally agree with that and never have said any different over the years. But in order for a pistol to be useful to it's owner, it has to function reliably. That's just a fact of life. And if the pistol only functions reliably with ball ammo, then ball ammo in that instance is far superior to any JHP that doesn't function 100% reliably.

    And accurate shot placement is another critical factor. Whatever ammo you have, whether it's ball or JHP is irrelevant if you can't hit the intended target. That too is fact of life.

    I would most certainly rather like to carry an autoloader with FMJ ball in the mag(s) I absolutely know won't let me down so loaded than the same handgun loaded with JHP that might have jammed once or twice at the range on 50 or even 200 rounds of JHP.
     

    zackmars

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    So you're saying that ball ammo can't, or won't kill, only that JHP ammo can?

    That's interesting. I never knew that.


    I didn't say that. Both are capable. Both just poke holes, but JHP will make a slightly bigger hole, leading to more rapid blood loss, and giving you an ever so slightly better chance to hit an organ

    I'm not going around pulling strawmans, i don't think its too much to ask that you do the same
     

    oldag

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    I would most certainly rather like to carry an autoloader with FMJ ball in the mag(s) I absolutely know won't let me down so loaded than the same handgun loaded with JHP that might have jammed once or twice at the range on 50 or even 200 rounds of JHP.
    And I would rather carry JHP than has never jammed and I absolutely know it won't let me down.

    And Z, there is no sarcasm in this post.
     

    Axxe55

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    I didn't say that. Both are capable. Both just poke holes, but JHP will make a slightly bigger hole, leading to more rapid blood loss, and giving you an ever so slightly better chance to hit an organ

    I'm not going around pulling strawmans, i don't think its too much to ask that you do the same

    Too many people put an emphasis on equipment, rather that concentrating on perfecting their own skills.

    There are some times when I have a pistol that happens to have FMJ ammo rather than JHP, and I can assure you I don't feel handicapped or compromised in the least.
     

    rotor

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    Paul Harrell has many excellent youtube videos on HP. Just realize that the speed of the bullet and clothing being worn are critical factors in bullet expansion.
     

    zackmars

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    Too many people put an emphasis on equipment, rather that concentrating on perfecting their own skills.

    There are some times when I have a pistol that happens to have FMJ ammo rather than JHP, and I can assure you I don't feel handicapped or compromised in the least.


    Good for you, but in case you haven't noticed, this is a thread ABOUT equipment. Yes we know shot placment matters, no one is arguing that (which is probably why you had to trot out a strawman...)
     

    zackmars

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    Paul Harrell has many excellent youtube videos on HP. Just realize that the speed of the bullet and clothing being worn are critical factors in bullet expansion.

    Quality, modern JHP rounds aren't going to clog up. Its only a concern if you are shooting older or cheaper JHP's. A big chunk of the FBI's ballistics tests not only tests rounds through denim, but wood, sheet metal, etc

    Even if a JHP does clog, it turns into a FMJ, which is why you want something that can penetrate very well, so it can at least potentially reach a vital organ
     
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