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  • jrbfishn

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    I think having officers use their brains to evaluate a potential threat, is much better than some states’ alternatives of treating all armed citizens as felons from the get-go.


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    This.
    100%

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    jrbfishn

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    Jrbfishn, the ltc/chl thing and disarming at a LOE's request are two different things.

    Think a Game Warden can't ask you to set your open carried rifles down? Or if he needed to to ask you to put away your pistols? You don't need a LTC to hunt...

    Think about this...

    Would it be reasonable for a LEO lawfully there of course to tell you to "Do not pick up that holstered pistol from your truck seat"? Why or why not?

    We are not talking about a cop knocking on your door and disarming you for fun here... We have a job, sure there are risks by wearing a badge, like a crazy randomly popping you in the back of the head, but what can you do about that? Keep your eyes open, but that's it... but if we get called to a crime scene, courts have upheld our authority to disarm people so long as we can articulate our belief for the need to disarm. Your belief that you are not a threat doesn't come into play.

    Does that help?

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    No it desn't.
    I normally open carry. And had several interactions with LE while carrying. None of them have asked me to disarm. Not one. Game Warden, DPS, Sheriff Deputies and local Police. I have even had a customer at a convenience store point out to a local LE that I had a gun. He looked at them and said "so?".
    I have not been a cop. I have had jobs that could, and on a few occasions almost did, cost me my life. And kept doing them.
    If you are afraid to do your job, find another one. You know case law?
    Case law says "fear" is not a valid reason.
    In most places, a cop is more likely to be injured or killed while in/by a vehicle than by a gun.
    Do we have to park them and shut them off when we see a cop?


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    Kar98

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    No it desn't.
    I normally open carry. And had several interactions with LE while carrying. None of them have asked me to disarm. Not one. Game Warden, DPS, Sheriff Deputies and local Police. I have even had a customer at a convenience store point out to a local LE that I had a gun. He looked at them and said "so?".
    I have not been a cop. I have had jobs that could, and on a few occasions almost did, cost me my life. And kept doing them.
    If you are afraid to do your job, find another one. You know case law?
    Case law says "fear" is not a valid reason.
    In most places, a cop is more likely to be injured or killed while in/by a vehicle than by a gun.
    Do we have to park them and shut them off when we see a cop?


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    Typically, when I'm interacting with a cop, they do request I put the vehicle into park and kill the engine.
     

    jrbfishn

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    The times I have been pulled over, It is already in park. I have never had them ask to turn it off but once. That was an MP that for some reason really, REALLY, did not like me. I have been in a vehicle with someone else driving that was asked to shut it off though. But they were acting nervous anyway.

    I am the type of person that would rather know who around me has a weapon rather than be in a crowd that I can not tell who does. And I am more concerned by there actions than I am about what they may have.
    It's kind of like driving down a street with kids in the yard playing. I know what they are doing and therefore what they could do. I am more concerned about the kids I CAN'T see. That is the one you might hit.
    If I see someone with a weapon, I know what they can do with it and what their options are as well as my options if they do. The one I don't know?? Might be the one I really wanted to know........

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    BillRedding

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    Dawico said:
    "Nobody seems to care.
    I have only seen a few people carrying open though.
    I believe it's a right we fought for but didn't intend to use much. But we got it."
    **********************************
    As the saying goes (over @ the OpenCarry.org website),
    "A right unexercised is a right lost."
    -- BR
     

    easy rider

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    Each department and officer is different but if you don't want work with me and let us feel/be safe then you can keep handling it yourself and we cancel the call unless you are holding lethal cover on a bad guy.

    Also, we don't know you from Adam... you likely wont have burglars wearing "I'm the bad guy" tshirts and you won't be wearing a I'm the home owner and I have a gun" tshirt. You trying to be all tactical and you surprise an officer at a crime scene with a deadly weapon... you ARE a threat now and how do you think it might end? It will likely end bad for everyone. YOU are safer when we are safe.

    We as police have lots of case law supporting us being able to do a lot to make our work environment safe for ourselves.

    Almost no one wants cops around their place and NO ONE likes being asked/told what to do by a stranger in their own dominion. I get it, but you called us to solve a problem and its going to get solved our way, in the safest way possible for us and you. If you dont want to work with us, cool.

    I used to would have gotten all pissed off and righteous about disarming in my own house after calling the police but I know the case law, I know WHY police ask for it to be done and even if I knew the officer and they knew I was a cop, I wouldn't be offended if they asked me to leave my piece inside... I called them remember?

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    I understand what you're saying, but are you saying that having a handgun in a holster is being tactical? Would you require me to disarm if I called the police, for say, witnessing a burglary and I'm on my motorcycle? And if not, why would you require it outside my home?
     
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    cycleguy2300

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    No it desn't.
    I normally open carry. And had several interactions with LE while carrying. None of them have asked me to disarm. Not one. Game Warden, DPS, Sheriff Deputies and local Police. I have even had a customer at a convenience store point out to a local LE that I had a gun. He looked at them and said "so?".
    I have not been a cop. I have had jobs that could, and on a few occasions almost did, cost me my life. And kept doing them.
    If you are afraid to do your job, find another one. You know case law?
    Case law says "fear" is not a valid reason.
    In most places, a cop is more likely to be injured or killed while in/by a vehicle than by a gun.
    Do we have to park them and shut them off when we see a cop?


    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    I am having trouble following your logic.

    Just because one officer didn't, doesn't mean I or another officer cannot ask/tell/make you disarm.

    You also are misusing the term "fear" in this case. "Fear" means I am scared you *might* be dangerous with no articulable facts for believing so. That's not cool. However, if I KNOW or reasonably believe you to be threat I can do just about anything I need to to make the situation safe. You simply having a pistol does not make you a threat, but it can go a long way towards me articulating why I believed you to be a threat if there are other factors.

    Unless someone brings up a new or novel point, I am done cluttering up an Open Carry thread with explanations of Texas Peace Officer's authorities...

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    cycleguy2300

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    I understand what you're saying, but are you saying that having a handgun in a holster is being tactical? Would you require me to disarm if I called the police, for say, witnessing a burglary and I'm on my motorcycle? And if not, why would you require it outside my home?
    When did I require anything?

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    Sledge

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    Not sure how it is with you folks in TX. Seeing a weapon carried openly makes some people uncomfortable over here in MS. Some folks are frightened by it thanks to the few nut cases who walk into a mall and start shooting. You can easily qualify for the enhanced concealed permit and carry just about anywhere except PD stations, courtrooms, MIL stations.

    I get the point about losing a right if you don't exercise it but it's not going to be like flipping a light switch, open carry acceptance will probably be slow, gradual on my side of the river.

    Personally: I sure as heck wish everyone openly carried.
     

    leVieux

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    Not sure how it is with you folks in TX. Seeing a weapon carried openly makes some people uncomfortable over here in MS. Some folks are frightened by it thanks to the few nut cases who walk into a mall and start shooting. You can easily qualify for the enhanced concealed permit and carry just about anywhere except PD stations, courtrooms, MIL stations.

    I get the point about losing a right if you don't exercise it but it's not going to be like flipping a light switch, open carry acceptance will probably be slow, gradual on my side of the river.

    Personally: I sure as heck wish everyone openly carried.

    Your comments are appreciated but very surprising. For years, we O C'd around Ferndale, Liberty & McComb with never any comment, odd look, or incident. We did hunt with the Sheriff "Tot" and wore camo, but everyone just ignored us in the towns. I had no idea it was illegal ?

    leVieux
     

    jrbfishn

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    I am having trouble following your logic.

    Just because one officer didn't, doesn't mean I or another officer cannot ask/tell/make you disarm.

    You also are misusing the term "fear" in this case. "Fear" means I am scared you *might* be dangerous with no articulable facts for believing so. That's not cool. However, if I KNOW or reasonably believe you to be threat I can do just about anything I need to to make the situation safe. You simply having a pistol does not make you a threat, but it can go a long way towards me articulating why I believed you to be a threat if there are other factors.

    Unless someone brings up a new or novel point, I am done cluttering up an Open Carry thread with explanations of Texas Peace Officer's authorities...

    Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk
    Other factors or just the ones in your head?
    Yes or no, does State Statute say you have the authority to have me disarm on my own property if I am not otherwise committing a crime? If so, which one.
    And not case law, State Law.

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    Hoji

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    Each department and officer is different but if you don't want work with me and let us feel/be safe then you can keep handling it yourself and we cancel the call unless you are holding lethal cover on a bad guy.

    Also, we don't know you from Adam... you likely wont have burglars wearing "I'm the bad guy" tshirts and you won't be wearing a I'm the home owner and I have a gun" tshirt. You trying to be all tactical and you surprise an officer at a crime scene with a deadly weapon... you ARE a threat now and how do you think it might end? It will likely end bad for everyone. YOU are safer when we are safe.

    We as police have lots of case law supporting us being able to do a lot to make our work environment safe for ourselves.

    Almost no one wants cops around their place and NO ONE likes being asked/told what to do by a stranger in their own dominion. I get it, but you called us to solve a problem and its going to get solved our way, in the safest way possible for us and you. If you dont want to work with us, cool.

    I used to would have gotten all pissed off and righteous about disarming in my own house after calling the police but I know the case law, I know WHY police ask for it to be done and even if I knew the officer and they knew I was a cop, I wouldn't be offended if they asked me to leave my piece inside... I called them remember?

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    Chances are if I call the police to my residence then any threats will have been taken care of ( either by metal or ivory) and I just need y’all to clean up the big pieces.;)
    I also have enough good sense to NOT have a gun in hand if I have called the man into my life,lol.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Other factors or just the ones in your head?
    Yes or no, does State Statute say you have the authority to have me disarm on my own property if I am not otherwise committing a crime? If so, which one.
    And not case law, State Law.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    You can't pick and choose between case law and state law. It's not how it works...

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    rotor

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    For LEO reading this, say I am sitting in an IHop with my family eating pancakes, 45 on my belt, you walk in for a cup of coffee. Do you believe that you have the right to 1, ID me and /or 2, tell me to put my gun in my car? I mention IHop because that's the last restaurant I saw a guy open carrying.
     

    jrbfishn

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    You can't pick and choose between case law and state law. It's not how it works...

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    Oh yes I can. Just because you get away with it in court does not mean it's the law or that it is legal. Just that a lazy judge does not want to decide the question.
    They have both been over turned and declared unconstitutional.

    I'm still waiting.......

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    txinvestigator

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    Oh yes I can. Just because you get away with it in court does not mean it's the law or that it is legal. Just that a lazy judge does not want to decide the question.
    They have both been over turned and declared unconstitutional.

    I'm still waiting.......

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    Based on your statement you don't know what case law means.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    For LEO reading this, say I am sitting in an IHop with my family eating pancakes, 45 on my belt, you walk in for a cup of coffee. Do you believe that you have the right to 1, ID me and /or 2, tell me to put my gun in my car? I mention IHop because that's the last restaurant I saw a guy open carrying.
    No, up until we have reasonable suspicion of a crime.

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    cycleguy2300

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    Oh yes I can. Just because you get away with it in court does not mean it's the law or that it is legal. Just that a lazy judge does not want to decide the question.
    They have both been over turned and declared unconstitutional.

    I'm still waiting.......

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    So here is what case law is.

    Imagine a world where police had infinite earthy authority i.e. they can do anything they wanted. I think we can agree that is bad, or would at least end bad.

    Lets add a 4th amendment, that restricts police authority to "reasonable searches and seizures" that means I can't "just stop/seize you" unless the seizure is "reasonable" according to law and the court's opinion.

    Here, a seizure is any force intentionally applied (punch, kick, shot, dog bite etc) or a yielding to police authority (i.e. "stop, police!")

    Detentions have to be reasonable. That means I can't just see a gal rocking a 1911 on her hip and demand she disarm, however the courts have held it is reasonable for police to make their immediate work environment safe. So if I am working in close proximity to someone, say a traffic stop or a burglary victim yes, police have the right to demand you disarm and the force of law is behind the officer's demand so long as the officer can articulate the reasonableness of the demand. But they do not have to sit and explain it to you, the articulation is to the courts if you don't comply and resist a search or something and get arrested.

    It's not much different than when I worked nights and working a crash on the highway. I may have the crash on the shoulder, but I still block of the nearest lane of traffic to give me a safe place to work. I might even stop all lanes and boom, now a bunch of folks are stopped on the highway so I can be safe.

    Most case law is based on the interpretation of the constitution's restrictions on police powers, police operate within the realm of "reasonableness" and that is what case law covers. State law may give specific powers or restrictions, but case law is just as legitimate.

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    Hoji

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    So here is what case law is.

    Imagine a world where police had infinite earthy authority i.e. they can do anything they wanted. I think we can agree that is bad, or would at least end bad.

    Lets add a 4th amendment, that restricts police authority to "reasonable searches and seizures" that means I can't "just stop/seize you" unless the seizure is "reasonable" according to law and the court's opinion.

    Here, a seizure is any force intentionally applied (punch, kick, shot, dog bite etc) or a yielding to police authority (i.e. "stop, police!")

    Detentions have to be reasonable. That means I can't just see a gal rocking a 1911 on her hip and demand she disarm, however the courts have held it is reasonable for police to make their immediate work environment safe. So if I am working in close proximity to someone, say a traffic stop or a burglary victim yes, police have the right to demand you disarm and the force of law is behind the officer's demand so long as the officer can articulate the reasonableness of the demand. But they do not have to sit and explain it to you, the articulation is to the courts if you don't comply and resist a search or something and get arrested.

    It's not much different than when I worked nights and working a crash on the highway. I may have the crash on the shoulder, but I still block of the nearest lane of traffic to give me a safe place to work. I might even stop all lanes and boom, now a bunch of folks are stopped on the highway so I can be safe.

    Most case law is based on the interpretation of the constitution's restrictions on police powers, police operate within the realm of "reasonableness" and that is what case law covers. State law may give specific powers or restrictions, but case law is just as legitimate.

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    Well said.
     
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