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  • Ole Cowboy

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    I like infantry the same way I like trophy animals: mounted.

    The last 100 yards is a different story altogether, but even light infantry is vehicle (ground or air) dependent in most AOs, today.

    Much of that is due to increased comm capabilities and load requirements. Today’s approach loads range from 95 to more than 120 lbs. compare that to the standard 20k ruck requirement for the Army, which is 42lbs, helmet, but no body armor.

    That’s do-able, it’s repeatable, and it’s good training. But it’s not representative of actual combat loads.
    Todd, just not seeing that. Infantry is going in another direction. I served in both straight leg and mech infantry, the days of driving up to the base of Hamburger hill with every vehicle online are not to be.

    https://www.defenseone.com/technolo...9.18.19&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief
    Guns International
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Todd, just not seeing that. Infantry is going in another direction. I served in both straight leg and mech infantry, the days of driving up to the base of Hamburger hill with every vehicle online are not to be.

    https://www.defenseone.com/technolo...9.18.19&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief

    That exoskeleton sales pitch was around for my entire military career. If it makes it to fruition, countering it with any of today’s ammunition is going to be a bitch.

    And that’s important because we have to assume if we have the tech, the enemy does to.
     

    zackmars

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    I too have been led to believe that...in fact, I DO believe that the laws of physics still apply and on every ballistic table I have ever worked with there is a column labeled "Energy" which is shown at various distances. But I came to learn that its just gun shop talk and Energy is not measurable...

    Energy is measurable, but its not the only factor in what makes a round good for fighting


    Once again, there is no such thing as knockdown power
     

    zackmars

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    Todd, just not seeing that. Infantry is going in another direction. I served in both straight leg and mech infantry, the days of driving up to the base of Hamburger hill with every vehicle online are not to be.

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2019/09/formula-predicts-soldier-firepower-2050/159931/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB 09.18.19&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief


    That reads like one of those old popular science articles talking about how tanks of the future will be rolling balls bristling with MG's

    a3d4c51c1db4840158026ae50d17fe3d.jpg


    A new rifle in a caliber like .243wsm, you're going to need a big improvement to material science so you don't need to haul a few extra spare barrels.


    You seem to have this idea that the rifle is super important, more important that what it really is. Obviously a good rifle is important, but your thought process is the exact same that got us the trash pile M14 instead of the FAL or AR10
     

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    Ole Cowboy

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    That exoskeleton sales pitch was around for my entire military career. If it makes it to fruition, countering it with any of today’s ammunition is going to be a bitch.

    And that’s important because we have to assume if we have the tech, the enemy does to.
    Yes it's been around but only recently have we had the added requirement of DIVISERITY (aka women). That is what is driving this train and you can expect it to happen.

    Yes, we can expect them to have it not because they developed it, but because they prob stole it...
     

    Younggun

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    On a battle field if I were handed a rifle chambered in .243 WSM I would be pissed and want to know what gov lacky decided it was better than a .308 or 6.5CM.

    I love the .243 Win round, but it isn’t a battlefield round and neither is the WSM version.

    As for the rifle to fire it, “ounces are pounds and pounds are painful” comes to mind.

    I’ve never driven down Combat Rifle Rd. But I did serve in Iraq.


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    Ole Cowboy

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    Me thinks that OP doesnt want to hear any other opinions,..what he wants to hear is his opinion coming out of our mouth.
    Everyone knows someone like this
    Now that is comical, certainly not how I led and to regurgitate my thoughts would get you dropped from the inner circle of those I depended upon to offer up a contrary voice. It is because I believe no one is 100% wrong in their outlook, but if we can gather all the views and then forge them into a coherent solution we can move forward. Worked very well for me in my careers...
     

    Younggun

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    Another point I forgot to make earlier.


    .243 WSM is gonna lose most of its advantages when fired from a 14-16” barrel. Who wants to lug around a combat rifle with a 26-28” barrel?


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    Ole Cowboy

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    I am hearing a lot about barrel burn out. Which with my background I beg the question of can we not improve the steel? Is barrel burn out merely a metallurgical question in search of a solution. Certainly we can step up to Chro-Moly or Stainless Steel each will give increased barrel life and a reduction in burn out. Improved steel is the answer IMO!
     

    zackmars

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    Another point I forgot to make earlier.


    .243 WSM is gonna lose most of its advantages when fired from a 14-16” barrel. Who wants to lug around a combat rifle with a 26-28” barrel?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    This is a good point. Full length rifles with ~30" barrels drew their last breath during WW1, the British and the US was well ahead of the curve, and so we both went into WW1 with "universal rifles", instead of an infantry rifle and carbine for horse mounted troops, we settled on a compromise. Funny enough the nature of WW1 mostly had rifles left behind in favor of pistols, grenades, and melee weapons.

    Moral of the story, long firearms sucking and short firearms being preferred is far from new
     

    zackmars

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    I am hearing a lot about barrel burn out. Which with my background I beg the question of can we not improve the steel? Is barrel burn out merely a metallurgical question in search of a solution. Certainly we can step up to Chro-Moly or Stainless Steel each will give increased barrel life and a reduction in burn out. Improved steel is the answer IMO!


    Metallurgy is much more complicated than simply asking "can it be improved"

    It can, but we aren't there yet. It's not like you can go back to the 1700's with the formula for smokless powder and come out with a continental army armed with 1903's and 1911's

    And the barrels used on the M4 are already pretty much using the best, PROVEN tech. CMV, 4150 steel, SOCOM profile, and yet they still have their limits with 5.56. Sure there are things like CHF, and other types of rifling, but thats not going to make a 20,000 round avg. barrel go to a 40,000 round avg.
     
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    zackmars

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    Also, while stainless steel is good for lowering cost on accuracy oriented barrels, it holds up very poorly compared to standard CMV barrels under high round counts. A .243wsm combat rifle with a short, stainless barrel would be a horrific service rifle
     
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