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Ares Arms, a different prespective

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  • gcmj45acp

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    In the discussions about the ATF raiding Ares Armor, has anyone seen these images? As much as I want to support Ares Armor, it looks as if they manufactured a 100% lower, filled it with different color polymer and called it 80%. If that is in fact what they did, that's a problem. And having dealt with an ATF case in the past, it may be that they want the customer names for the purposes of having those customers turn those lowers in without penalty because the customers are not the ones who have committed a crime if the ATF allegations are true.

    AresArms80percent.jpg
    Ares-Polymer-Lower.jpg
     

    wakal

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    Ares doesn't make lowers.

    The company that does make those lowers casts the lower AROUND the trigger group odd-colored block... First, the odd colored core is cast. Then the molds for the lower...which hold the block in place...are fitted to the block and the complete lower is cast around it. When you look at them in person, you can see the clamp marks from the molds on the trigger block extension. Very clever.

    The folks who actually make those were raided a few weeks ago.
     

    Kennydale

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    The fact that the BATF Ignored a restraining order (If Signed by A Judge, it should have been followed) tells me the BATF was fishing. They supposedly had a meeting set up, but that did not matter to our wonderful benevolent Government (Yes that's SARCASM). I am sure Ares Armor was not going to start destroying records, or hiding inventory. The total disregard for the law rests in the hands of the Government agents. IN the USA your are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ares when they woke up this morning found out they were time transported to (pick Your Historical Tyrannical Government).
     

    gcmj45acp

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    Our current understanding is that the same judge who issued the restraining order, rescinded the order, allowing the BATFE to execute the warrants in question. They may indeed be fishing but, it doesn't look like the warrants were executed in violation of any standing order.

    EP Armory's molding of an 80% receiver around a plug versus molding a plug into a 100% receiver seems like something the BATFE would consider splitting hairs. Having said that, I've heard references of EP Armory being challenged by the ATF on this issue before and ultimately being exonerated. May be that will be the case this time around.
     

    bones_708

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    The fact that the BATF Ignored a restraining order (If Signed by A Judge, it should have been followed) tells me the BATF was fishing. They supposedly had a meeting set up, but that did not matter to our wonderful benevolent Government (Yes that's SARCASM). I am sure Ares Armor was not going to start destroying records, or hiding inventory. The total disregard for the law rests in the hands of the Government agents. IN the USA your are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ares when they woke up this morning found out they were time transported to (pick Your Historical Tyrannical Government).


    The problem is just about everything you say is wrong. Sure they got a restraining order because they said the warrant filed for EP had misinformation. Guess what BATFE files for a new warrant with a change in language then BOOM no more restraining order. So no disregard for law, since they, BATFE, is following the law ranting on about the rule of law seems strange. Innocent until proven guilty? They didn't even arrest anyone yet. Or are you saying there must be a trial before they can arrest or size evidence? That is just crazy. Whatever you are going on about seems to have little relation to this incident.
     

    Acera

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    I get what Kennydale is saying about Innocent until proven guilty bones. It is a common term first used by English lawyer Sir William Garrow as a more direct approach to the 'Presumed innocent until proven guilty' concept a couple centuries ago. We all know that if a person commits a crime they are guilty of that crime, it just a statement that the burden of proof is not on the accused but on the accuser to prove it in court. Unfortunately once you are officially accused of a crime the rules change in how you are treated.
     

    Ranger60

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding was that companies such as Tactical Machining obtain an ATF letter first regarding their 80% lowers, basically an OK, it's a paperweight. I have heard, and again, correct me, that ARES did not obtain a letter, thus came under scrutiny/
     

    bones_708

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    I get what Kennydale is saying about Innocent until proven guilty bones. It is a common term first used by English lawyer Sir William Garrow as a more direct approach to the 'Presumed innocent until proven guilty' concept a couple centuries ago. We all know that if a person commits a crime they are guilty of that crime, it just a statement that the burden of proof is not on the accused but on the accuser to prove it in court. Unfortunately once you are officially accused of a crime the rules change in how you are treated.

    But no one has even been arrested. They are not being treated as guilty yet. So saying things about that presumption seems off point.
     

    bones_708

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding was that companies such as Tactical Machining obtain an ATF letter first regarding their 80% lowers, basically an OK, it's a paperweight. I have heard, and again, correct me, that ARES did not obtain a letter, thus came under scrutiny/

    Yes and no. Most companies do get a letter but it is in no way required just industry norm. Ares doesn't manufacture the lower so it's not them that would get the letter but EP armory who is the manufacturer of the lower but they, even after being told the BATFE thought the lower was a firearm, still made and sold the item. Now EP and Ares may win in the end but there is no doubt that it's going to court and that is who should be deciding things, a court.
     

    Texasjack

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    So when is it OK for the gov't to break in your door so that they can gather evidence?

    They don't do that with drug dealers, gang bangers, murderers, rapists,....

    But ATF has a real "thing" about anybody thinking they can ignore them or stand up to them.

    'Cause if they had a case, all they have to do is subpoena the records. Ares lawyers (with all due fanfare and public whining) would turn them over to them.

    I've noticed that ATF loves to make a display like this periodically just to scare the piss out of gun and parts dealers.
     

    bones_708

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    So when is it OK for the gov't to break in your door so that they can gather evidence?

    They don't do that with drug dealers, gang bangers, murderers, rapists,....

    But ATF has a real "thing" about anybody thinking they can ignore them or stand up to them.

    'Cause if they had a case, all they have to do is subpoena the records. Ares lawyers (with all due fanfare and public whining) would turn them over to them.

    I've noticed that ATF loves to make a display like this periodically just to scare the piss out of gun and parts dealers.


    Ummm they do do that with drug dealers, gang bangers, murderers, rapists all the time. They get a warrant and they go in and gather evidence. Maybe a subpoena would of worked but the warrant definitely did work and unless there was an open court proceeding or grand jury they couldn't subpoena records. A subpoena duces tecum requires one to bring documents to a court or hearing but if it is just an investigation without anything going to a court you use a warrant. And yes I do agree that BATFE can and douse bullying tacticts against people who they shouldn't.
     

    gcmj45acp

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    Guys, TheTruthAboutGuns.com has been staying on top of this and an unnamed contact with BATFE has largely confirmed everything mentioned in the TTAG article. At the center of this are the polymer lowers made by EP Armory and sold by Ares Armor. Other 80% polymer lower manufacturers have since ceased production of these items because of the developments from this case. The BATFE's interpretation of the way these things are made is a big part of the problem and quite honestly, opinions on what constitutes a 80% lower in this case seems to vary depending on who you ask. I can see the argument that a receiver is molded around a plug versus a plug molded into a receiver might be seen as hairs. Another issue was a completely seperate dealer holding "build parties" in which people bought 80% lowers and were provided facilities and allowed to finish the core machining operations under the direction of a machinist telling you exactly which cuts to make and what to drill. It was a request for clarification on these issues that seems to have gotten Ares Armor rapped up in all of this.
     

    Acera

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    Has anyone communicated with the sponsor on here from California that makes a 80% lower that a number of members on here bought???

    Wonder what they have to say.
     

    Bprifle

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    This topic is why I signed up.....

    The ATF is full of crap. They should have been researching the construction of the lowers instead of breaking down doors. Saying it looks easier than 80% just damn well doesn't cut it.

    I just completed one of the EP lowers from Ares a few weeks ago. Having done the lower on a mill in my machine shop; it is not some easily removed idiot proof piece. Yeah the different colored piece is a great guide on where to start but that's about it. After removing all the white polymer, trigger group still wouldn't fit. Had to remove significant amount of the black polymer as well & massage all the holes. It was far less effective than a jig, it just saved a little money.

    Having said all that, I feel like my rights have been violated right along with Ares. Knowing that ATF is now cross checking my info and all my other purchases looking for anything they deem "suspicious" (and for all I know I'll forever be on their list)
    Having them take my info is no less criminal than the guys that hacked Target's computers in my eyes.
     

    TAVM

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    I'm sure they had your info anyway. If they didn't I'm sure the NSA could've given it to them.
     

    PhulesAu

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    Does Anyone else get the Sportsman Guide Mailers? They are showing a Stealth Arms AR15 80% lower Forged kit that includes the drilling jig. part # D4X6-593053 I'm sure I've missed something, but makes this much different , than what ARES was selling?
     

    bones_708

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    I'm sure I've missed something, but makes this much different , than what ARES was selling?

    Well at the very least that lower was made from a single piece of metal. The EP lowers were created with at least 2 different materials molded together. You say why should that matter? Well even Aries seems to think it does because they claim it's only illegal if the materials were molded in a different order.
     
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