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Civilian access to military ranges?

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  • Nietzsche

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    In the U.K. I held memberships in a number of clubs over the years including the Fifty Calibre Shooters Association (UK). All the clubs were able to book military ranges for club use at reasonable cost, giving access to rifle ranges up to 1200 yards and the FCSA also regularly booked a tank range going out to 3000 yards. Clubs had trained ROs, own insurance and operated within the rules of the military.

    Is there anything like this in TX?
     

    Renegade

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    I shot at Fort Wolters and Fort Hood, but that was 20+ years ago and I think it is no longer an option.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Retired military here. Generally speaking, the answer is no.

    There are exceptions. Google Ft Hood Sportsman Club.

    The challenge is most military installations aren’t open to the public.

    If you know someone who can sponsor you, and follow all the regulations, it can be done.

    But an NRA membership doesn’t grant you access.
     

    Nietzsche

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    Thanks for the info, I will have a google the Ft Hood club and try and find out what the set up is. I found this but I am not sure if it is enacted and as you said access to the base is probably going to be the issue.
    10 U.S. Code § 4309 - Rifle ranges: availability for use by members and civilians.
    a)Ranges Available.—

    All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.

    (b)Military Ranges.—

    (1)

    In the case of a rifle rangereferred to in subsection (a) that is located on a military installation, the Secretary concerned may establish reasonable fees for the use by civilians of that rifle range to cover the material and supply costs incurred by the armed forces to make that rifle range available to civilians.

    (2)

    Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (1) in connection with the use of a rifle range shall be credited to the appropriation available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle rangeand shall be available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range.

    (3)

    Use of a rifle range referred to in paragraph (1) by civilians may not interfere with the use of the range by members of the armed forces.

    (c)Regulations.—

    Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.

    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 236; Pub. L. 99–145, title XIII, § 1301(b)(3)(A), Nov. 8, 1985, 99 Stat. 735; Pub. L. 101–510, div. A, title III, § 328(e), Nov. 5, 1990, 104 Stat. 1533; Pub. L. 102–484, div. A, title III, § 380(b)(1), Oct. 23, 1992, 106 Stat. 2390.)
     

    majormadmax

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    BRD@66

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    I used to drive right past the FH Sportsman's Club on my way to unload & ride my dirt bike at South Ft Hood - prior to 9/11. The access to Hood changed dramatically after that bit of history.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Dang, that looks like a yes.

    Color me shocked.

    It’s a very qualified yes. From a base access Q&A: “Section 1069 of the 2008 National Defense Authorization Act, now Public Law 110-181, establishes the standards required for entry to military installations in the United States. The secretary of defense has directed all military installations in the United States to comply with Directive-Type Memorandum 09-012, Interim Policy Guidance for DOD Physical Access Control.”

    In most cases its installation access that’s the problem. Then, if you do get access, there’s got to be a range available. That means not booked.

    Additionally, every installation I’ve been assigned to has required you to register what your bringing on the installation.

    Except Ft Carson; when there from 2013-2016, the post literally built a range that is accessible prior to entering the installation.

    https://carson.armymwr.com/programs/cheyenne-mountain-shooting-complex
     
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    majormadmax

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    Thanks for the info, I will have a google the Ft Hood club and try and find out what the set up is. I found this but I am not sure if it is enacted and as you said access to the base is probably going to be the issue.

    10 U.S. Code § 4309 - Rifle ranges: availability for use by members and civilians.
    a)Ranges Available.—

    All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms.

    (b)Military Ranges.—

    (1)

    In the case of a rifle ranger referred to in subsection (a) that is located on a military installation, the Secretary concerned may establish reasonable fees for the use by civilians of that rifle range to cover the material and supply costs incurred by the armed forces to make that rifle range available to civilians.

    (2)

    Fees collected pursuant to paragraph (1) in connection with the use of a rifle range shall be credited to the appropriation available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle rangeand shall be available for the operation and maintenance of that rifle range.

    (3)

    Use of a rifle range referred to in paragraph (1) by civilians may not interfere with the use of the range by members of the armed forces.

    (c)Regulations.—

    Regulations to carry out this section with respect to a rifle range shall be prescribed, subject to the approval of the Secretary concerned, by the authorities controlling the rifle range.

    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 236; Pub. L. 99–145, title XIII, § 1301(b)(3)(A), Nov. 8, 1985, 99 Stat. 735; Pub. L. 101–510, div. A, title III, § 328(e), Nov. 5, 1990, 104 Stat. 1533; Pub. L. 102–484, div. A, title III, § 380(b)(1), Oct. 23, 1992, 106 Stat. 2390.)

    I don't believe that means civilians in the sense you are thinking. I am pretty ranges can be dual used for dependents, retirees, Reservists/Guardsmen, civil servants, etc. or their invited guests; not that John Q. Public can utilize the facilities.

    Honestly, I have never seen anyone on a military range that wasn't an ID card holder or a guest of one.

    The Cheyenne Mountain Shooting Complex seems to be the exception, but it appears that range is solely for recreational shooting (not military training). In fact, that website states it is "a partnership between the U.S. Army, El Paso County, the El Paso County Sheriff and Colorado Parks and Wildlife and the U.S. Forest Service." I will definitely check it out the next time I am up in C-Springs...
     

    toddnjoyce

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    The Cheyenne Mountain Shooting Complex .... I will definitely check it out the next time I am up in C-Springs...

    It’s nice enough. Monday’s are closed for EPSO training. If your familiar, enter like you’re going to Gate 20 (I-25 & Fountain). About 100 yds shy of the ECP/ACP is a dirt toad on the left. Turn there. It’s maybe 1/4 - 1/2 mi back.
     

    Nietzsche

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    I don't believe that means civilians in the sense you are thinking. I am pretty ranges can be dual used for dependents, retirees, Reservists/Guardsmen, civil servants, etc. or their invited guests; not that John Q. Public can utilize the facilities.
    It would be a shame if this is so.

    The quoted reg does say "All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms."
    The purpose of this may be to allow "John Q. Public" to develop and maintain the skills necessary to form a "well regulated militia". (Depending on one's interpretation of "well regulated").

    It certainly sounds like it's more hassle than it's worth. My question was posed on the basis of finding a decent range to get back into ELR shooting. I fancy buying another .375 cheytac or .50bmg but there doesn't seem much point at the moment due to range availability.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    It would be a shame if this is so.
    ..
    It certainly sounds like it's more hassle than it's worth. My question was posed on the basis of finding a decent range to get back into ELR shooting. I fancy buying another .375 cheytac or .50bmg but there doesn't seem much point at the moment due to range availability.

    Again, as a retired military officer, it is so in practice. Generally speaking, you WILL usually require a military sponsor who can be held liable for your conduct.

    Additionally, there really aren’t all that many rifle ranges on any given installation, and even fewer that can handle calibers such as you’re interested in.

    Each range has certain restrictions on what rounds can be fired on it and under what conditions. For example, my time at Ft Carson.

    Range 57 has to be scheduled through Range Control’s RFMSS program. Unit scheduled activities take precedence and can be reserved 6 months in advance.

    To ‘check out’ your reserved range, you’ve got to have 2-way radio comms with Range Control, and RSO certified/qualified on the weapon being employed, and a Range Officer, also qualified in the weapon being employed. These ROs/RSOs aren’t NRA quals, they’re Army certifications and require minimum rank/grade requirements.

    Range 57 is also limited to 9mm and 5.56 ammunition, unless a suitable Surface Danger Zone plan has been approved by range control in advance.

    Which is why MWR runs sportsman’s or rod & gun clubs for members to shoot their privately owned weapons.

    Check out your local installations and see if they have something like that. You may find they have a process for civilian access. Follow it and enjoy. I just don’t recommend driving up to the gate with a 50BMG and asking where the M2 capable ranges are.
     

    Nietzsche

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    Thanks again TnJ. The procedure you describe is very similar to the UK. I was one of the clubs certified RO's (the certification was issued by the UK NRA but recognized by the Army). The club secretary had to book in advance, provide names and firearms certificates numbers. When on the range we had to sign in, have radio contact with the base at all times also a trained first responder present. Most ranges were limited to .30. We only had a few ranges with extended danger areas suitable for the bigger stuff. I was lucky enough to live about 25 miles from one of them.
    I appreciate your detailed explanation.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Thanks again TnJ. The procedure you describe is very similar to the UK. I was one of the clubs certified RO's (the certification was issued by the UK NRA but recognized by the Army). The club secretary had to book in advance, provide names and firearms certificates numbers. When on the range we had to sign in, have radio contact with the base at all times also a trained first responder present. Most ranges were limited to .30. We only had a few ranges with extended danger areas suitable for the bigger stuff. I was lucky enough to live about 25 miles from one of them.
    I appreciate your detailed explanation.

    You’re welcome. My brother used to live in Croughton, then Cambridge for a total of 12 or 14 years.

    Love visiting the UK, but most of was work related, so I didn’t get to see much more than London unfortunately.

    ETA: check out ELRCentral.

    https://elrcentral.com/elr-locations/
     
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    robertc1024

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    I wish I had known that about Cheyenne Mountain a couple of months ago. Drove right by it and had the better part of a day to kill. I'll take about any opportunity to shoot out to 500+ yards.
     

    majormadmax

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    It would be a shame if this is so.

    The quoted reg does say "All rifle ranges constructed in whole or in part with funds provided by the United States may be used by members of the armed forces and by persons capable of bearing arms."
    The purpose of this may be to allow "John Q. Public" to develop and maintain the skills necessary to form a "well regulated militia". (Depending on one's interpretation of "well regulated").

    It certainly sounds like it's more hassle than it's worth. My question was posed on the basis of finding a decent range to get back into ELR shooting. I fancy buying another .375 cheytac or .50bmg but there doesn't seem much point at the moment due to range availability.

    You'll most likely have to search elsewhere. As toddnjoyce stated, it's unlikely that any military range would allow you to shoot those calibers. If you notice the link I posted for Bullis, it is restricted to smaller than 7.62.

    The intent is not for the general public to shoot on these ranges, but those on base who want to do so in an unofficial capacity. Most military ranges are not open to anyone beyond training for forces, Bullis only has one range out of several that is used for off-duty shooting.

    There is no requirement for the DoD to allow "John Q. Public" to develop and maintain the skills necessary to form a "well regulated militia." That is upon the individual.
     

    Nietzsche

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    The intent is not for the general public to shoot on these ranges, but those on base who want to do so in an unofficial capacity.....

    There is no requirement for the DoD to allow "John Q. Public" to develop and maintain the skills necessary to form a "well regulated militia." That is upon the individual.

    So you piqued my interest from an academic standpoint, and I did a bit more searching on title 10.

    Going back to 1958 it appears there was once a subsection 4307 & 4308 ( repealed around 1996) which related to a promotion of civilian marksmanship. The purpose was to instruct able bodied citizens of the U.S. in rifle marksmanship. At that time the unorganized militia was able bodied male citizens aged 17 - 45.
    The ranges were for civilian and military use.
    I suspect technology means the Government no longer worries about hoards of communists and so along with the intention to disarm, are slowly nibbling away at the links between the citizens and the services. (It's the same in the U.K.)

    Oh and title 10 has been changed ss4309 appears to be ss7409 since 2018.
     
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    majormadmax

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    So you piqued my interest from an academic standpoint, and I did a bit more searching on title 10.

    Going back to 1958 it appears there was once a subsection 4307 & 4308 ( repealed around 1996) which related to a promotion of civilian marksmanship. The purpose was to instruct able bodied citizens of the U.S. in rifle marksmanship. At that time the unorganized militia was able bodied male citizens aged 17 - 45.
    The ranges were for civilian and military use.
    I suspect technology means the Government no longer worries about hoards of communists and so along with the intention to disarm, are slowly nibbling away at the links between the citizens and the services. (It's the same in the U.K.)

    Oh and title 10 has been changed ss4309 appears to be ss7409 since 2018.

    Interesting, but did anywhere in your research did you find a requirement for the DoD to provide any of the training and/or facilities?

    I believe the subsection you're referring to was the basis of the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), which was created as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act and administered by the US Army until about the same time as subsections 4307 & 4308 were repealed (which as you mentioned was around 1996).

    Title XVI of the FY96 NDAA created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit corporation chartered by Congress, but is not an agency of the US government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq.).

    Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles from the Army's inventory, the CMP receives no federal funding.
     

    Nietzsche

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    Interesting, but did anywhere in your research did you find a requirement for the DoD to provide any of the training and/or facilities?

    On that I am not sure due to the way ss4307 & ss4308 are written, the titles/ roles referred to and relationship to DoD. If you have a moment to review and comment, the document I looked at should be here (Pg.1240):

    https://www.loc.gov/item/uscode1958-002010401/
     
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